Topic

Jim's closet

I don't know if the devs will allow this, and even if they do, I don't know if it will work. It has worked very well for me in some other forums.

I'm posting some of my reactions here to other threads, for others to discuss with me, if anyone wants to. I'm not demanding that people use this thread only for that purpose, but I'm hoping that will happen naturally, as it has in other forums.

First I'll say again here what I said in another thread, that one thing that could sustain my interest here is finding others besides me who are trying to learn to help improve the community life in our neighborhoods, for everyone in our neighborhoods, on line and off line.

ETA: I would need to find at least one other person who is making sustained, systematic efforts to improve himself, and to learn to help improve community life for everyone, with whom I could exchange ideas and experiences. It would have to be someone who understands my concerns about marginalization and unkindness, and is making efforts to help improve the social environment for everyone in it, not only for himself and potential allies.

* Vision:

A growing and spreading movement of people learning together how to help improve the community life in a neighborhood, for everyone in the neighborhood. At the heart of the training is learning, through study and practice, to do things in the right spirit, for example with kindness, generosity, honesty, best wishes for all, humility, purity, and other virtues.

* Goals:

My current goal here is to explore the possibilities of helping to reduce unkindness and counteract its effects.

* Strategies

1. Practice my ideas for helping to reduce unkindness and counteract its effects.
2. Exchange ideas and experiences with others who are making sustained, systematic efforts to improve the social environment.

* Lines of action

1. Friendly posts to people I see being treated unkindly and getting no sympathy, preferably in other, less contentious threads, where they're posting.
2. Discussions, with anyone else who is interested, about our ideas, efforts and experiences, like in a support group.

Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • Next, the topic that's currently on my mind, which triggered the idea to start this thread: naughty language.

    First, I want to say that seeing a group of people using naughty language and behavior for socializing and entertainment, has an adverse effect on me that detracts from my enjoyment of the game. I haven't actually seen that yet in the game, but I've seen posts in the forums celebrating those events, and just the thought that I might see things like that has dampened my enthusiasm. For whatever that might be worth to anyone. Really.

    I don't want anyone to be censored or even to censor themselves. Really.

    I might like people who jump on those bandwagons to ask themselves if they really like doing that, or if they're just doing it to get in to the party, and then reconsider if they really want to do it or not.

    To be continued ...
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yesterday I was thinking that playing with naughty words might be a healthy part of a child's psychological and moral development, and I was wondering if that could apply to people at any age. I think it could. I don't know how much that applies to anyone here, but with that possibility in mind, it might not bother me so much when I see it.

    ETA: Just now I was thinking that naughty language is so much a part of some people's language and personality, and so deeply rooted, that it would be impossible to restrain themselves from using those words without repressing some of their thoughts and feelings, and without seriously impeding heart-to-heart communication with them. That's the problem I ran into in one forum. It was impossible for me to have heart-to-heart communication with some of the members with other people pestering them about the forum rules.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This thread seems like it belongs in Off-Topic.  It's more like a blog than a discussion of Glitch features.
    Posted 13 years ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, I wouldn't want to see the front page of the general discussions covered with everyone's private  threads.
    Posted 13 years ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And the "family game or not" is somehow more relevant?  At this point it is much less about the game than about personal expectations.

    ETA - maybe what is needed is a group for adult respectful discussions about things (not dogmatic, just intelligent diverging opinions)
    Posted 13 years ago by Kookaburra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ferond, this is a bit off topic. Ideally, General threads should be thoroughly anchored in the game itself. (Forum Guidelines are in the works!).
    Posted 13 years ago by Blanky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The topic I'm discussing here has already been discussed in this forum, repeatedly and at great length, without anyone suggesting that it be moved elsewhere. I imagine most of what I will want to discuss here will be topics in this forum.

    If you mean that what I said in the first post belongs in the Off Topic forum, I might agree in part.

    If "Off Topic" means here what it means in any other forum I've seen, then it means "Not about Glitch." What I'm discussing now is about Glitch, and I imagine most of what I will post here will be about Glitch. Even improving community life will be mostly about improving community life in Glitch. If I talk about improving community life in other neighborhoods, then I agree that would be off topic.

    If the concern is that other people might start threads like this one, and then the forum would be filled with them, I'm not sure why that would be a problem. Those threads would only keep appearing as long as people keep posting in them, and if there's that much interest in them, why shouldn't they be there?

    If that is a problem here, then it would be just as much a problem in the Off Topic forum.

    There is already at least one thread here revolving around one person, and I imagine that there are many more. Why should this one be treated differently just because it's labeled that way?
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Blanky, I don't mind having this moved to the Off Topic forum. I'm really happy that it wasn't just deleted. I wasn't sure that a thread openly revolving around one person would be allowed at all.

    However, I see some possible implications and consequences of moving it here, that you might want to consider.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ferond - starting a thread about other threads is what makes it different. You always have the option of commenting about the general tone of a particular discussion within the thread itself. I do agree that the delineation between forums has not been very clear up to this point, and that is why I mention that more transparent guidelines about what belongs where are going to be coming very, very soon. Also, Off Topic shouldn't be viewed as a forum wasteland - to get people to visit the other forums regularly, they first need to be populated with substantive and timely threads (such as this one!). Otherwise, General is just a grab-bag of various threads that can overwhelm people who don't read these forums on a daily or hourly basis. 
    Posted 13 years ago by Blanky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Blanky, by "the game itself," you mean the environment, the part of the game that comes from the Web site, as opposed to the players, and what they do on the Web site, and their relationships on the Web site? You're saying that all discussions about what the players do here, and their relationships here, are Off Topic? If so, then I see some other threads that need to be moved here.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ok, I see. Thinking ...
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Blanky, I imagine that if I had titled this thread "Naughty language and behavior in Glitch," and left off the first post, no one would have suggested moving it here, and you would not have moved it here. Many threads are spinoffs of others. I don't think you normally disallow more than one thread about the same topic, and even if you did, as others have said, whether or not Glitch is a family game is quite distinct from what kind of language is used. I don't imagine you normally move threads here that revolve around one person. Please consider carefully: Did you really move it here because of the content, or did you move it here because of the title and introduction, and because some other people wanted it moved here? Then carefully consider the possible implications and consequences of that.

    Actually, I think it's much better for my purposes to have this thread in the Off Topic forum, and I'm not sure about the possible harmful implications and consequences of moving it, but I think there might be some.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ferond, Thank you for your feedback, these are all things I think about pretty much constantly, and trust that I will carefully consider your points. But also please respect my decision to move this thread - I have moved threads before for the reasons you have mentioned and will continue to do so.
    Posted 13 years ago by Blanky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ok. Sorry. :-(
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Julie is one of my favorite names.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • About the family game discussion in the General Forum:

    I don't like all the mocking, and hijacking the thread for clowning. I felt the same temptations, very strongly, and I get some laughs from it, but I still don't like it. It interferes with any serious discussion that anyone might like to have.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When I manage a forum, there is only one rule: No one can interfere with other people's discussions.

    One of the worst kinds of censorship I've seen is flooding a thread with mockery and clowning and socializing, making it virtually impossible to continue the discussion. It's a very easy way for people with hard feelings against someone to sabotage his discussions, and otherwise abuse and harass him as much as they want to.

    Another pet peeve of mine is censorship against anything that authorities call "racial" or "ethnic" hatefulness, without any restrictions on any other kind of hatefulness.

    I keep forgetting that part of the content of forum rules is dictated by laws, however wrong they might be.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ?
    Why would I be surprised or disappointed to see the same things happen here that I've seen in every other Internet discussion?

    Now I remember my answer to it ... It's been a long time ... Friendly interest in abused and marginalized people, and posts showing that interest.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • * Edit
    I'm reconsidering what I was thinking about the priorities of the administrators.
    * End edit

    I've totally lost interest in a game run by people whose priorities are such that a thread like this one is moved out of the General Forum within a few minutes, while two days of openly hijacking and flooding a thread with spiteful and cruel mockery and clowning and verbal abuse, with complete disregard for others who are trying to discuss the topic seriously, and openly bragging about the sabotage and celebrating it, doesn't elicit any visible moderator reaction at all.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • * Edit
    I'm reconsidering what I was thinking about the priorities of the administrators.
    * End edit

    This pretty much confirms my suspicions about the priorities here. Two days of openly hijacking and flooding a thread with spiteful and cruel mockery and clowning and verbal abuse, with complete disregard for others who are trying to discuss the topic seriously, and openly bragging about the sabotage and celebrating it, doesn't elicit any visible moderator reaction at all, or any acknowledgement of my reports about it, while a thread by me about cultural backgrounds of Glitchers is moved out of the General Forum, where there is already a thread about the ages of Glitchers.

    And the New Achievement thread is still in the General Forum.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ferond, please don't take the moving of this personally. It was moved at the outset because of its positioning as one person's editorial take on other threads here. I can understand that the chaotic nature of General while we're between tests can be frustrating, but as we go forward, the family game thread is not one that will be allowed to spin out as far as it has these past few days. We will never be 100% consistent in the moderation of forums, but with the forum guidelines (that are coming) to point back to, these types of threads will be dealt with more decisively. 
    Posted 13 years ago by Blanky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • * Edit
    I'm reconsidering what I was thinking about the priorities of the administrators.
    * End edit

    Thank you, Blanky, for that thoughtful and sympathetic response to my contentious musings.

    I don't have any problem at all with this thread being moved here, in itself. I agree that it belongs here, and it serves my purposes much better to have it here. I only mention it because it eliminates some possible excuses for why there is no visible reaction from moderators to two days of privileged members wantonly abusing the forum, and flaunting their abuse. It obviously isn't because you don't see it, or because you don't take immediate and decisive action about any deviations from protocol that seem important to you. As I said, it confirms my suspicions about the priorities here being the same as they have been in every other Internet discussion I've seen.

    I know my resentful feelings are showing here, so I want you to know that it isn't resentful feelings against you, personally, or anyone in particular. My feelings towards you are very warm!
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "One of the worst kinds of censorship I've seen is flooding a thread with mockery and clowning and socializing, making it virtually impossible to continue the discussion. It's a very easy way for people with hard feelings against someone to sabotage his discussions, and otherwise abuse and harass him as much as they want to."

    I'm not sure you want other people responding to this thread, but I just wanted to let you know that I agree with you.  I find that other thread shameful, and it is not the first one that has struck me as such.
    Posted 13 years ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes, lovintnt, I do want people to respond to me in this thread, and thank you!
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One more thing to get off my chest before I try to sleep some more.

    As I see it, deliberately treating anyone cruelly, for any reason, and being proud of it, and inciting others to do it, and admiring it, and applauding it, and celebrating it, help perpetuate every kind of abuse against all kinds of people, including child abuse and abuse of minorities. It is not simply innocent and harmless fun. I'd like to know if any other people here agree with that.

    As I see it, flooding a thread with mockery, clowning, socializing, counter-boosting and other off-topic posts, and being proud of it, and inciting others to do it, and admiring it, and applauding it, and celebrating it, are an insult, injury and threat to anyone who wants to have any kind of serious discussion. It is not simply innocent and harmless fun. I'd like to know if any other people here agree with that.

    In my experience, and I think in common knowledge, abuse does not go away if you just ignore it. It thrives on people ignoring it and denying it. I'd like to know if any other people here agree with that.

    Edit: I might have just found a resolution to my problem here, and the one I've been having in Internet discussions for years. I see now that it would be disastrous for forum administrators to try to stop the abuse with punitive actions, even if they see it and want to do something about it.

    Edit: I also think that continuing to post in a thread where those things are happening rewards the abuse and helps perpetuate it, even if you're protesting against it, and even if you're the target of the abuse.

    Edit: As I see it, a fellowship which prides itself on the pleasures and comforts of its privileged members, and denies, excuses or trivializes their cruelty to others, is a sick fellowship. Smiles, hugs and sweet talk only make it more repulsive to me.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with all three. I also feel it is/was wrong of me not to step in and say something that effect or just say stop.
    Posted 13 years ago by Millie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you, Millie.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm sorry for the hurt I caused by playing a part in it. That's no good. :(
    Posted 13 years ago by Voluptua Sneezelips Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Voluptua, this is the most precious and hope-inspiring response to me of all!
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I see some people saying that the abuse is exceptional or temporary. Some people might be thinking, it's over, let's just forget about it and go on. It may be worse than usual, and harder for more people to close their eyes to it, when the game is off, but I'm quite sure it will not disappear when the game is on. Even now I still see posts in the forums not only excusing abuse, but bragging about it, applauding it and celebrating it, and people encouraging each other in disparaging its target.

    To some people the abuse doesn't matter, or is even commendable, as long as they can comfortably cast its targets as villains. Other people excuse themselves from trying to do anything about it by saying that the best thing to do is just ignore it. In an atmosphere like that, it makes no sense to me at all to imagine that it will disappear.

    I agree that the best response to abuse in a thread is to ignore it, in the sense of not responding to it, not even to protest against it; but not in the sense of not doing anything about it at all. As I said before, abuse thrives on people ignoring it and denying it.

    Some people might be thinking that we should just leave it to the moderators.

    First of all, I don't imagine the moderators have any objection to initiatives by other people in the community to help reduce abuse. Second, I don't think there's anything that administrators can do, alone, to stop it, and I think it would be disastrous for them to try.

    Edit: I should be saying, reduce abuse, and counteract its effects.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm thinking that maybe the damage that is done to people when they're abused, is not only from the mistreatment itself, but from never hearing from anyone that what's being done to them is wrong. That might even be what does most of the damage.

    We don't need to know anything about anyone's intentions, to tell someone who's being mistreated that what's being done to them is wrong. We can do that without any risk of hurting other people by misjudging their intentions.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm also sorry I didn't respond to the mocking.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ooloi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you, Ooloi. Actually, I saw you make an effort early on to prevent the abuse, and I see the effort you're making now to prevent more. Prevention is the best cure!

    ETA: I don't want to be the first to reply in the freedom and responsibility thread. I don't know yet how to explain why. At this point it's only a feeling. For now if I have anything to say about it, I'll say it here.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Random thoughts about language, courtesy, freedom and responsibility:

    1. I'm imagining that using naughty words is so much a part of some people's personality that it's unfair to insist that they stop it, without insisting on an equal amount of repression of everyone else's personality. I imagine also that it would be impossible to have heart-to-heart communication with them in an environment which represses their naughty language.

    2. When I first saw someone suggesting (I think) that after the game is opened up to the masses, there will be more of a demand to clean up the language, I didn't agree. Thinking about it now, it's beginning to seem more plausible to me.

    3. My objection was never to the language of individuals. My objection was to the crudelewd parties that I read about in the forums. Even then, I was not asking or even wishing for anyone who habitually uses naughty language to stop. I was hoping for people who participate in crudelewd parties to ask themselves if they really like it and approve of it, or are they just doing it to get in on the party?

    4. I see people saying that no words are bad in themselves, and that if you're allergic to some words, all you have to do is stay away from them. I agree that no words are bad in themselves, and that it's just conditioning that makes some of us allergic to some words. Would they agree that there's nothing wrong with dog droppings in themselves, that it's actually a very healthy thing for dogs to do, that it would be wrong to repress it, and that it's only conditioning that makes the droppings repulsive to some people? Would they agree for people to walk their dogs anywhere they want to without cleaning up after them, and people who don't like it can just look away from it, and walk around it, if they see it in time not to step in it? Would they agree that most people are not allergic to cats, so there doesn't need to be any consideration for people who are?

    5. What concerns me even more than those issues is the one I've been discussing, intentional cruelty, and intentionally flooding discussions with off-topic posts, and people admiring and encouraging the abusers, and celebrating the abuse, and the popularity of ignoring it or denying it.

    6. The hopes that were beginning to grow in me of seeing some change in all that are fading now, with the game opened up to the masses. I see now that all of my hopes presupposed a relatively small community composed of mostly the same people over a long period of time. Now it's a whole new ball game, and I don't have any ideas yet of what the possibilities might be for social change, or how to pursue them, or even if I would want to. It might not have anything to do any more with my purposes in life.

    7. On the balance between freedom and responsibility: I don't see anything to balance. I don't see freedom and responsibility as opposed to each other at all. I see freedom from repression, and responsible behavior, as inseparable and mutually reinforcing. As I see it, the best path for increasing freedom from repression includes learning to be genuinely interested in everyone's welfare, learning to combine your interests with everyone else's, and learning the most effective ways to pursue your interests in the face of all kinds of restrictions and opposition. As I see it, that path coincides with the best path for increasingly responsible behavior.

    Also as I see it, external regulation of people's behavior can actually impede their progress in learning responsible behavior, and on the other hand it's impossible to progress in freedom from repression without learning to behave more responsibly.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Regarding 4:

    Words are ephemeral. They don't leave a mess behind. Also, saying "it's good for the dog to shit" isn't the same as saying "shit is good." The metaphor doesn't carry through.

    There isn't anything malicious about using the word "shit" in its primary sense. It's only when the words are used to curse someone that I would consider them unethical, or at least rude.

    I agree that no one should have to choose between closing off chat entirely or creating closed communities to avoid hearing anything they don't like to hear. I just don't think it's too much to ask folks to speak up if something bothers them. Like I need to speak up when I see racist actions or speech. People can't be expected to know what they haven't been told, however incredible it may seem anyone hasn't heard _that_. In either case, approaching rudeness with courtesy is likely to work better than the best-reasoned argument.

    I consider it sufficiently important to use such words, at least until someone asks one not to, because not using them only feeds the power of the words' negative uses.

    Regarding 5 & 7
    : I agree.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ooloi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Some time when I see naughty language in Global Chat, maybe I'll say that I'm allergic to it, and see what happens.

    I can sympathize with some reasons that people give for using words that offend some people. I do it myself. I sometimes say things that I know will offend some people, even when I sympathize with them for feeling that way.

    Now I'm thinking of applying the same principles that I would apply to allergies. Personally I'm allergic to all the words that I've seen discussed here. Knowing that it's a product of conditioning doesn't change that. Also, I don't feel called to help recondition people, even though I can sympathize with that.

    Actually I'm not allergic to those words in themselves, not much anyway. As I said I have friends who use one of the most infamous ones in every sentence, and I hardly ever even notice. They only offend me when it looks to me like they're being used in certain ways, like clubbing people with them, or as an impoverished substitute for humor, or to join a party.

    "I consider it sufficiently important to use such words, at least until someone asks one not to, because not using them only feeds the power of the words' negative uses."

    Food for thought. I feel the same way about some words, and some topics of discussion. Gays, for example. Sometimes for that reason I will say things about gay equality, and discuss things in gay-friendly ways, knowing that it will be very offensive to some people. In every community I'm in, I say and do some things that I know are offensive to some of the people around me, or even all of them. Only, usually for me it's more a matter of putting myself in the line of fire, rather than not feeding the power of negative uses.

    ETA: If I saw people being lynched or marginalized here for using naughty words, I might start using them.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • All my hard feelings about forum management are gone. I'm glad, because I didn't want to go away mad. Also, I'm reconsidering what I was thinking about management priorities. Even so, my interest in playing the game has not come back, and my interest in trying to help improve Glitch community life has evaporated in the wake of the launching.

    I still have some work to do on my hard feelings against a few players. After that, there's nothing to keep me here any more, except to tie up loose ends that I might have with anyone here.

    ETA:
    @Ooloi:
    My feeling about not being the first to reply in the freedom and responsibility thread was that it might be detrimental to that discussion for me to post there, and for people to see me posting there, but I guess I should leave that up to you. Would you like me to post my ideas there?
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Ferond - Regarding the thread I started, no need, since the issues are being addressed in your threads, but thanks for offering!

    Also, I agree that it's far more important to confront prejudice.

    I'll miss your contributions to the community when you go.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ooloi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sorry. I didn't know I was upstaging you!
    :-(
    I was trying not to!

    I know you weren't complaining, and you weren't doing it for attention, but I still regret it.

    I really did start too many threads.

    I'm ashamed and embarrassed.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Ferond-
    I hope I was not one of those who have made you question whether to continue to play this game.  If so, I ask you to please read my most recent post on the offending thread.
    However, I will apologize to you personally and say I'm truly sorry and I hope that what others may post in forums does not affect your game play.  The game is beautiful and well done and should be enjoyed, not a cause of stress.  Sometimes it is best to wear "blinders" and just play the game by yourself without letting others' pov's affect you.
    Hug a chicken, it always makes me feel better :)
    Posted 13 years ago by Gadzooks Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Gadzooks, if you mean are you one of the ones I saw bragging about being unkind and disruptive, or applauding it, or celebrating it, or excusing it, or denying it, the answer is no, you aren't. Thank you for the apology, anyway!
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Ferond, don't be silly!
    Posted 13 years ago by Ooloi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What are crudelewd parties?

    Also, might I suggest that you don't leave the game but just take a time-out from the forums. I see a lot of people do that when they don't enjoy the T
    atmosphere, it's mostly a temporary thing.
    Posted 13 years ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just found a way to have very warm feelings towards my blackest villain here. I can easily imagine a dear, dear friend of mine acting the same way.

    I'm finished here now, except for any loose ends anyone might want to tie up with me. I'll keep checking for a while.

    @ Victoria: I saw some posts in the forum celebrating nude parties and naughty language orgies. I call that crudelewd parties for short. It's starting to look more and more like that to me.

    ETA: I've lost any hope of any sustained, active interest from anyone, ever, in improving the social environment, apart from possibly one person.

    Oct 2: Still wavering. Seeing some hopeful signs. Also wondering half seriously if Glitch is actually a sociological research project.
    Posted 13 years ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink