Topic
Second impressions
First and foremost, bugs:
I have a quest which says "put that knife & board to work", when I haven't yet obtained a knife & board! This is either a glitch, or a poorly-explained quest.
Also, I shook milk to turn it into butter, and received a cheesemonger badge, for turning milk into cheese.
Also, I performed an action (either leveling up or gaining a badge) which caused my helper to turn from the book-reading helper to the regular helper. Clicking on him and closing the window turned him back to the book-reading one. Intentional?
Some quests seem to be completed BEFORE their requirements are filled. I was to pet 6 pigs, and I pet 5. Upon clicking pet on the 6th pig, I was rewarded. However, I still had the option of canceling the pet. I've had this happen a few times with various quests.
Now, let me preface the rest of my comments by saying that I am by no means an expert; I'm a teenager with 9 years of programming experience, a few months of game development experience, and very strong opinions. With that as my background, this is my second batch of comments:
I'd like to reiterate what many others have said: there isn't a sense of purpose to the game. Usually, quests in other games are given with a purpose, as is the level-up & skill system in general (E.g. higher levels mean more monster-kills, more skills mean you can produce more and make more money). However, here there has been no justification given, rather, the "stock" set of video game tools has been used (quests, skills, experience, level-up, energy), with no purpose. If the game is to be heavily similar to other games, then this use of common abstract elements makes sense; if the game is to be radically different and innovative, then the use of abstract ideas common to other video games is confusing and off-putting.
At one point, I finished all the quests I'd been given, and then wandered around in a stupor, with no idea of what to do. Because all the gameplay mechanics I'd experienced had been part of quests, I had no idea what to do with them once they were no longer quests. After completing the first alchemy quest, I still had no idea what alchemy was for, and felt thoroughly bored. All I could do was go cook to keep my energy up.
I DO, however, like the parts of the skill system I've seen, including the cooking. I would highly recommend looking into Paper Mario cooking mechanics (on the N64 and its sequel on the GameCube), as I found cooking in Paper Mario to be one of the most fun, addictive experiences ever in a game. Also, the pathfinding feature is a great one.
I've also had the game-exit survey repeat to me questions which I have already answered, effectively giving me two votes (rather ironic in a question about whether or not the game should have a voting system). Setting up a log of which players have had which questions is simple and quick, and the result seems much more professional than a server which simply asks players random questions, no matter how many times they've answered them.
The skill-learning system, while interesting, seems all too exploitable. It seems any idiot could write a macro which would automatically learn new skills if the computer was left on, which I briefly considered doing when I had no quests left, and so, nothing to do.
So far, I'm still planning to come back and keep playing. It seems to have potential, but I'm REALLY not sure what it is.
Replies
- i got the same with the quests who are completed before they are done, so that's true.
- i agree with the sense of purpose. This game would be more solid if it had a good storyline to follow.
- @kozmiq Good point! A storyline would certainly help give it a sense of purpose. It's not necessarily the only way, though. Just giving the players long-term goals of any kind would help, too!
- I think the idea is that the long-term goals are supposed to be community-driven. The thing I found compelling about the game was watching Help chat and getting involved with the various projects to expand the world. That said, if you weren't watching Help chat, you'd never know that those things existed. I think there need to be quests that point you to the projects - that way people would be introduced to the concept. It would also be nice to have a global chat that wasn't labeled "help," at least while the world is so small.
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There does need to be a goal. Growth without purpose is not a sustainable goal. The crows provide antagonism, but what happens if they succeed? It's not like we just can't take it back, right? Why do we want to make new streets, anyway? So we can explore more terrain we can't do more than climb on or jump off, and proceed to fill it with trees and pigs named spock?
Community driven is great, but ultimately the devs determine what is possible. They effectively give us a paint-by-numbers kit, and we determine what colors go where. There needs to be a benefit to making it look either beautiful or garish, and a reason to bother painting in the first place. Killing time is not a good goal. - @Robot You realize, that you are supposed to go to the kitchen store and buy the knife and board, right?
- I like the storyline idea. I think it would be nice if we could do more with our houses, like decorate, build more rooms, etc. Also it would be nice to do more with the backyards.
- I like the lack of purpose at the moment
- The "no purpose" issue is getting to be so prevalent, I think it's is a sign that the devs are onto something. good work, devs!
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+1 on the milk into butter = cheese badge bug. Made me think Oh, well, I better work out the cheese thing then. Having the badge, an' all.
I had no problems finding stuff to do. In fact, I only really bothered with quests when I had time (or got bored) between other explorations and finding-outs about things.
Regarding game exit surveys- i also got the same questions over and over, but I assumed it was because they wanted to check whether my answers would change as I learned more about the game. The first time I was asked whether I would prefer an in-game political system (or something like that) I was on level 1 or two and had no idea how to answer. Similarly with the 'is this game fun' question- I think it got more and more fun as I learned more stuff, so my answer changed accordingly each time I was asked.
Also, if any glitch gods are listening: in the question 'would you recommend this game to friends' I would like the option of answering 'Yes! As long as they have no one relying on them for survival (examples: children under the age of 4, pets, prison inmates etc.).' I would hate to be blamed for the neglect and severe malnourishment that would invariably follow a bad glitch addiction.
Hands up all those whose sleeping and/or eating habits were severely affected by the last few days' testing. Anyone not sleep at all?
For those of you that have kids- have you seen them around? Go check to see if they've eaten the dog. -
Wrendolin - I raise a virtual hand re altered sleeping habits over the past few days ;-) Kept track of the kids though by setting a route on the Glitch map and having them go from signpost to signpost for me, or having them water, pet, harvest for me while I tended to necessary real world tasks like making dinner, etc. ;-)
I also agree that my answers to the exit questions have been changing as I get more into the game, so I don't mind too much that they repeat. -
I suggest to the developers to not confuse depth with purpose. I think the game could use more depth (of course that comes with further development so not really a criticism now) but I disagree with many posters about the sense of purpose. I'm fine with 'explore' as a purpose; both exploring skills and actual physical exploration. Depth gives exploration purpose and that is one of the things I find most promising in a "game of big imagination".
End point: I don't want a storyline. I want a world to exist and grow. - *snip* double post somehow.
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For all those of you who think a game without purpose doesn't work, consider this one thing: Farmville. Nuff said.
Now I'm not, by any means, suggesting that Glitch should become like Farmville and would be extremely dissapointed if it did. I'm just saying, simply leveling, creating and collecting IS enough for some people. (Animal Planet and Second Life too).
I would like to see storylined and chained quests as well. -
@Miss Bunburyist: I wasn't aware, as I wasn't watching the help chat. In that case, there would ideally be a nice interface for networking and setting up community projects, as well as a more extensible game. So far what I've seen is you can just work with what's already there, you can't create/destroy (I haven't played for very long though)
@Cainunable: I did realize this, but it was not immediately intuitive, as the quest seemed to presume I already had those things.
@Multiple: Personally, exploring hasn't been very interesting for me. Much of the world is similar; it all has a similar feel. I don't get the feeling that I've gotten something out of exploring, I just feel like I've moved from place to place. Depth would certainly solve this (e.g. giving each place a backstory), but so would purpose and goals, including community-driven goals. - Robot: Have you explored Uralia, lx, Groddle Heights and Shimla Mirch? They are very different from Groddle Meadow and Forest. Personally I LOVE Uralia and Shima Mirch. I especially love the street spirits in Shimla Mirch (aka The Firebog).
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Yep, completed the pet the pig as soon as I clicked pet on the 6th pig. Instant gratification and definitely a bug.
The quests keep things moving but I'd like more options, more of an open environment. I'd like to run for mayor, sell my gardening services freelance, build weird looking monuments and other creative stuff. Just give me the tools and if I run out of ideas I can continue plugging away at the canned quests. - Oh and more quests that involve other players. Maybe get some more communication. I remember someone asking if we were players or NPCs. I couldn't blame him, everyone was so busy running around completing quests they ignore the other players.
- I like the world that has been created and found that exploring it was fun in itself. I LOVED the random quests that popped up. The room with the cat put a huge smile on my face. I agree that more depth would be beneficial. I would also like to see some danger in some of the areas. I don't want monster fighting per say, but having wild untamed areas that need to be conquered/"cleared out" would add an interesting element.
- @Wrendolin: I definitely raise my hand. I've been a Glitch addict since *finally* being able to get on.
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For being early alpha, this game is excellent.
My only suggestions involve improving the social nature of the game. Quests that push people gently towards projects or quests that involve social interaction would be wonderful additions. Perhaps guilds or some other small groupings for certain quests, or "block projects" for people to get to know their neighbors once they have a house.
An overarching story would be okay, but I somewhat like the randomness of it. -
I really hate it when people are like "It only in alpha, it's great for an alpha game." Well kids, the game is due to release in a few months. So you can't use that one anymore.
I concur with Robot. Except - macros? It's called AutoIt, ftw. - This is extremely similar to Animal Crossing, but doesn't seem to have as many computer-controlled characters, which do end up adding quite a bit to the AC world. I enjoyed finding a "rube," i think it was called? the little wooden figure which makes trades, and also (randomly?) obtaining a game show ticket, which gave me a Price Is Right wheel to spin for a prize. Random bits of fun like that are more interesting to me than petting pigs.
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@Roxon I'm not sure if they'll be releasing it in a few months, have they announced when? I heard a few months back that it would be right after New Years, and just recently in the promo video it said "early spring". I wouldn't be surprised if the release date were to be pushed out again, given the ginormous nature of this game.
IMO our current purpose in the game is to explore, share, and report bugs as alpha testers. What's awesome about this is that we can actually drive the purpose of the game and communicate our opinions here in the forums directly to the devs. If you've read some of the interviews and news reports about this game, its pretty clear that they want it to manifest as a user-driven creative world. In the end you get to choose the purpose as your glitch character. I think my favorite part so far is having a few real-life friends and family members that I can visit and help complete quests with (one of them is my mom who lives far away from me). I'm really looking forward to seeing group-shared property and quests for this reason.
I will admit that from the last few tests I've had moments of boredom in the game. A few quests that I have to wait for or a skill that I haven't finished learning yet tend to leave me wandering around and maybe collecting tree items. This doesn't bother me much though, as it reminds me I should probably get off of the computer and have some real-life time for a bit. I think its a little healthier that way :)
Also as for the votes when closing the game, I'd guess that they all get tallied and help drive what areas are next in line for development. I don't always answer the same for each question, I guess it kind of depends on my mood and gameplay experience. -
@Jade: I have explored.. I think two of those, and definitely Ix. It's still nothing new, though. Different sprites, but exactly the same gameplay options and everything. Immediately upon entering Ix, I thought of Dr. Seuss, and if the game world was a little more interactive and malleable to players, then living out Seusslike fantasies would be excellent here.
@Mursock: User-driven worlds are great, but there need to be goals. I started playing and had no idea what I could or couldn't do, as I wasn't given any direction. Maybe there are already whole worlds of gameplay options I haven't discovered, simply because I haven't been told about them!
@Mursock: I agree with you that getting out during lulls in gameplay is great - but gameplay shouldn't intentionally be made more boring to accommodate this! - I come down on the side of those who want the game to be driven by users rather than by goals fixed in place by the devs. My problem with most games is that they are too linear, too fixed by the devs. Second Life is a very interesting exception. There are no dev-created goals, no fixed storyline, no nothin'. Just creative people making things and interacting. I think that's great.
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"My problem with most games is that they are too linear, too fixed by the devs."
my problem as well.
"Just creative people making things and interacting. I think that's great."
i would love a game like that. unfortunately i don't think there's much of a market for it.
people get bored easily and like being ordered to do things that occupy their time. the quests and achievements have been very popular - social and artistic experimentation [to the extent it is posible in the environment] has not.
i think that modern games need to have easy to solve puzzles that make people feel as if they are smart for having solved them, and activities that feel like productivity instead of actually being productive. it is very important to build a game that cultivates the player's ego in order to set up the addictive reward/response cycle that encourages repeated play.
having a game be purely creative is at odds with this. it puts way too much of the game's success at the feet of the players. if the player hits a creativity block or social vacuum, there is no game.
so the best case scenario is creative gameplay *plus* addictive "pseudo-puzzles" that make the player feel smart in the same way a Dan Brown novel makes the reader feel smart for being one step ahead of a very obvious "mystery". the tricky part is making sure the ego boosts don't overwhelm and overtake the creativity. - Ah, striatic, you are such a cynic, though perhaps absolutely right. Hmm. How about a game that had silly, well OK that's judgmental, linear quests for those that insisted upon it, yet had the ability of a game never ending to let players create the world? The devs could create quests for the uncreative (there I go again) while the creative could, you know, create. Could the creative also create quests?
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"How about a game that had silly, well OK that's judgmental, linear quests for those that insisted upon it, yet had the ability of a game never ending to let players create the world?"
that's what i think/hope glitch is going for. the framework is there, and future plans should improve the creative aspects of the game. we know people are going to have increased creativity in modifying their houses and avatars - which is creative and could even open up some artistic possibilities.
still, this is "background" creativity. if creativity is remotely time consuming and comes at the expense of completing quests, achievement or projects, the creativity will not occur. or in a very limited, fringe capacity.
at any rate .. call me pollyanna but i don't think that there are "uncreative" type players. i do think there is uncreative type gaming that can discourage players from being creative, and that a lot of players prioritize "game/grind" over being creative but that does not make them uncreative or uninterested in being creative. it's just that it is a secondary concern that has to fit in between virtually smashing virtual rocks for hours in order to make a number in the top lefthand corner of the screen flip from 25 to 26.
if you could figure out a way for being artistic to pump XP points, i think you'd see an explosion of in-game art. not sure that's possible tho. - Well, that is fucking depressing. :D
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At the risk of outing myself as a lever pulling monkey (although it’s probably already too late), I have to speak on behalf of the benefits of dopamine squirts. I wish I could be a person with unlimited creativity and social energy to pour into a game, but I find most of my creativity and social energy is already committed in elsewhere—to a job, work peers and friends, a mortgage, a marriage and two kids. I don’t want a game that offers a fake and easily won achievement to create a sense of self-worth for me, what I want is a fake and easily won achievement to unlock the next bit of what the developer of the game is offering me. Yes, it is passive, but that it is a conscious form of consumption on the part of the players and has value as that.
Now having said that, I have to say I appreciate and look forward to more and more ways to be able to be creative and create content as a player, but the options floated in the forums don’t really excite me much. The kind of user-generated content most players can expect starts at what stri calls background creativity (making your own wall paper for your house), but the technical demands on the user ratchet up out of reach pretty quickly. You are either pecking out a t-shirt design with a stylus in Animal Crossing or you have the technical proficiency to design and give/sell avatar skins in Second Life (thus populating the world with Goth porn stars), or you know how to write code and you are working with the API, but the number of “creative” players gets smaller and smaller that way, and it gets tougher and tougher for a monkey out there. -
I tried the ol' "decorate somewhere with artistically spaced piles of butterfly milk interspersed with a single cherry and punctuated with a cabbage" trick at the end of the last test in two locations. One of them was swiftly demolished by passers-by who scooped up the goods. The other probably took a bit longer to find but I expect it, too, was scooped into inventory. I like the thought of constructing the giant golden platypus, but other smaller-scale projects would be entertaining, too.
Random acts of decoration in public places make me smile, even without any XP. They're bound to be temporary, but that's not entirely a bad thing. - If you could put some kind of lock of unscoopableness on your art pile, then people might take time to appreciate the subtlety of it. Until you were ready to release it for scooping, anyway. :-)
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There are lots of ways to make art. This was my silly contribution, just before GNE closed forever, in which we moved over 14,000 presents out of the North Pole.
www.stevewhite.org/stuff/Ar... -
wow, plurp, that must have taken a ton of energy--it looks like you munched down everything but your butterflies to get it done.
Looking at the platypus from another point of view though, it's still something whose end product has to be provided by the devs, or by someone(s) graphical and coding efforts. and the genesis of it is in fact the meeting of "quest with ingots to donate" and "lack of ingot-needing quests". You could call the platypus statue just an ingot dumpster (not that I ever would).
I think that kind of found art (artistic stuff piles, moving presents out of the North Pole) is what I was getting at with the idea of the (much mocked) nakedidity thing in another thread---using the objects at hand to make something new. It's intensely much more personal, and maybe only you and a couple of other people "get" it. But I wouldn't ever want that kind of creativity to get tied to XP. -
.. i don't think the major creativity in glitch isn't going to be "t-shirt deigns" and "piles of crap" and "avatar skins".
first off, it is clear that players aren't going to be given the tools to do that kind of thing for a variety of reasons. many of them good reasons. like the penis graffiti reason.
but mostly because the game is aiming for a distinct mood and style that would be messed up if the players got involved in it.
there simply aren't the tools for the specifically visual creativity that everyone instantly thinks about when they read the word "creativity" in our visual culture.
no, whatever player based creativity there is in glitch will probably be more like performance and conceptual art. invented personas. like dressing up as a demon and living in hell. or setting up a keyboard macro + skill combination to have a character continuously repeat an action as a kind of spectacle. or forming a group that does spontaneous flash mobs or fake protests. or mass animal renaming campaigns. and then making screenshot and videos to document.
but ultimately "creativity" in the game will mostly be like the golden platypus campaign. players "vote" on what creative direction the glitch art staff should take. kind of like voting on street upgrades. a large number of these ideas will have some quest or project based tie-in to keep them inside the grind loop. -
How can we contribute player-created content? OK, so let's think. Glitch has a few basic things.
(1) Avatars
(2) Locations
(3) Plants & animals
(4) Stores
(5) Objects
(6) Skills
(7) Maybe other stuff I forgot
The devs have already said that they want to offer only a limited selection of avatars, so avatars aren't the place where player-created content will be a big deal.
Players could create new plants & animals, complete with graphics, behaviors, menus & dialogs. But the devs are still likely to want control, or at least approval, of new stuff in this regard.
Players could create their own stores capable of buying or selling existing objects. That shouldn't be too hard. (Except, of course, with 500k players, there might be lots of stores. :-)
Players could create their own objects complete with graphics, behaviors, menus & ways to make them (skills, precursors, etc.). But, again, I suspect the devs are going to want control or approve new stuff.
Players could create new skill ladders. Again, am I repeated myself?, I'll bet the devs will want control or approval.
So how about this? Devs release guidelines for locations, plants & animals, stores, objects & skills. Players submit their best ideas, using whatever toolkit the devs provide. The devs pick among them for ideas that they promote to the world. Players can create stuff; devs approval & control. In some cases, the devs can take the submissions as suggestions and implement stuff in their own way, using the suggestions as inspiration. Perhaps submission of a new thing requires some really high-level skill, ensuring that only fanatic players will submit stuff. Perhaps the submitters can have special powers with respect to the stuff that they submit, like the ability to make an object, or have a skill.
The idea is to reap the benefits of the incredible creativity of the players to make the world bigger / better / more fun. And maybe the most creative players get a bonus as well.
Would that be fun? -
"The devs have already said that they want to offer only a limited selection of avatars, so avatars aren't the place where player-created content will be a big deal."
not sure about this. they've said limited selection of avatars but not limited selection of clothing. indeed there's going to be *lots* of clothing.
"Players could create new plants & animals, complete with graphics, behaviors, menus & dialogs. But the devs are still likely to want control, or at least approval, of new stuff in this regard"
i think i recall devs saying that there will be no user submitted art, at least not in the foreseeable future.
"Players could create their own objects complete with graphics, behaviors, menus & ways to make them (skills, precursors, etc.). But, again, I suspect the devs are going to want control or approve new stuff."
not likely.
"Players could create new skill ladders. Again, am I repeated myself?, I'll bet the devs will want control or approval."
not likely.
"Would that be fun?"
yes, but it isn't going to happen. from what we've heard, there are zero plans for "user generated content"
stewart's gamasutra interview:
www.gamasutra.com/view/feat...
"You were talking about going back to the MOO stuff and having the ability to actually have an effect of the world. How much of an effect on the world are players going to have?
SB: Well, I mean, some of it is interaction with us. It's not totally open. We have a tool for location editing. I can drag stuff around. We're not going to give that to players. At least for the foreseeable future.
So people can't draw a penis using those bushes.
SB: Yeah, exactly. Some day, we might want to give some of that, open that up. Instead, we'll design the locations. And by the way, they'll be better, right? We're paying for people who are talented to do it so it looks awesome.
Players unlock new locations. So they kind of lay down where they're going to go. As they unlock them, we'll be a little ahead in terms of content development. Depending on which direction they push things, we'll go and develop more in that direction. We're also going to try a couple things like Tale in the Desert-style democracy for players." - Oh I hope not! From what Wikipedia says about Tale in the Desert, it sounds dreadful. Should Glitch veer off in that direction, more power to ya, but I'll be the one on the hillside wavin' bye bye.
- And maybe I have not stated my premises clearly. I don't expect the devs to randomly accept graphics (or anything, really) from us players, But players could submit such things and have them considered (as suggestions, really) by the devs. People who have been playing for a long time will have a way better idea of what the devs will accept, and hence a way better chance of getting their ideas incorporated into the game. That is, player-created content is not antithetical to dev control of the look and feel of the game. So, you know, yay.
- why would they want to put in a convoluted vetting process for art which may or may not be quite what they want and rewards only players who a] have drawing skills and b] are willing to work for free, when instead they can take suggestions from all the players and execute on it exactly how they want?