Topic
group limit on projects
i know there's a thread about this as i saw it last week but since there's no search feature (hint, hint) i'll post a new topic.
i love the projects that come up around the world. but what i hate is that levels far above fairly new people are the ones that are able to get, and contribute, first and fastest. it seems like there should be basic contributions that "noobs" can contribute to. so say, you are level 7 and below you can contribute to certain aspects of the project and anyone above needs to wait until that's done. that way certain levels can focus their efforts and then once that's done the other levels can come in with the advanced skills.
also, some sort of limit would be good. too many times this weekend i went in and there would be 15+ people gathered around a project. i hate to think what this game would be like open to the whole world.
i love projects, don't get me wrong, but there needs to be a way for more people across different levels to be involved.
Replies
-
i think perhaps locations closer to starting points should have more lower level projects, but places and zones further out would require more experienced explorers to build, or even that massive projects, like a bridge to the moon, might take a lot of both kinds of workers, but perhaps may be a bit competitive.
for instance, starting from both ends teams of lower levels (high % of users, less skilled, starting from earth) and higher levels(low % of users, higher trained skills, starting from moon) transamerican railway style!
Each group would be building to meet in the middle, but the project won't stop until the bridge is done. the group that finishes more of the bridge would get bonus rewards, xp, game tickets, a funny bridge hat, ect, and the bridge itself would get a statue,plaque, or ribbon for the winning side placed at the finished percentage, for those who travel the great skybridge to see! the other team would split their rewards as normal.
this would pretty much get everyone involved, but also spread out some of the users in two(or more) work areas. i think it's cool when you get to see everyone who is helping build, personally. -
"i love the projects that come up around the world. but what i hate is that levels far above fairly new people are the ones that are able to get, and contribute, first and fastest. it seems like there should be basic contributions that "noobs" can contribute to. so say, you are level 7 and below you can contribute to certain aspects of the project and anyone above needs to wait until that's done. that way certain levels can focus their efforts and then once that's done the other levels can come in with the advanced skills."
i totally disagree with this. having to rope in a "noob" to complete a project is rather unfair. groups of high level players should be able to operate autonomously if there is no "noob" interest.
basically what you're suggesting is a "noob quota".
on the projects this test there were plenty of things to do where high level character had no advantage over low level characters. paper and barnacle collecting were two examples of this. neither took any kind of advanced skill, so players at level 1 and at level 25 were producing the exact same numbers of barnacles when working together or apart.
"for instance, starting from both ends teams of lower levels (high % of users, less skilled, starting from earth) and higher levels(low % of users, higher trained skills, starting from moon) transamerican railway style!"
that's not how this would play out. it assumes that there will be a high number of active low level players and a low number of high level players. this won't be the case for the following reasons:
1] after enough time passes, the number of higher level players will increase relative to the number of people creating new accounts
2] a lot of new players will be taking time to learn the mechanics of the game and accumulating a bit of resources. the rock is pitching them quests all the time, and to have higher level players trying to recruit them to help on streets [which actually delays their character power development]
i think the solution to the problem is already present. every project should contain long duration, high volume collection tasks that can be engaged on even terms by players of any level. collecting planks, dirt, barnacles, paper etc is something that works the same for high level players as for low level players. everyone walks around at the same speed, trying to find things. maybe higher level players get some benefit from pack room .. but most of these items stack in one slot.. so really not an advantage.
"also, some sort of limit would be good. too many times this weekend i went in and there would be 15+ people gathered around a project. i hate to think what this game would be like open to the whole world."
this problem solves itself, the more people who gather, the more quickly it ends. if lots of people gather, the project will complete before more people have time to gather. -
the bigger issue with the top post here, and other posts like it, is that it MASSIVELY misinterprets something that isn't necessarily a problem.
a low or medium level player encounters a project, sees a lot of things have been done, and things they can't do available. assumes this is because higher level characters are somehow 'hogging the project'
problem with this assumption is that i'm at level 23 and i've been cultivating skills pretty much constantly over the course of all the tests.
*i* encounter projects, see lots of things have been done, see only things available that *i* can't do. the only difference is that i don't have higher level players to blame for beating me to it.
i went barnacle hunting for an hour and a half last night with a 5th level player who ended up collecting exactly the same number of barnacles as i did. tell me how a "noob quota" would have improved that situation instead of complicating it. -
"collecting planks, dirt, barnacles, paper etc is something that works the same for high level players as for low level players. everyone walks around at the same speed, trying to find things. maybe higher level players get some benefit from pack room .. but most of these items stack in one slot.. so really not an advantage"
everyone may walk at the same speed but remember back to when you were level 1-3; did you know where everything was? plus, we're also talking non-alpha play. when there are thousands of users, with hundreds of 'noobs', then the idea of users not paying attention to projects cancels itself out. heck, even projects could be queued.
it can easily get to a point where the "landed gentry" of the early alpha group think they should be involved in every project, which gives high rewards, isolating those at lower levels. i'm suggesting that those players at a higher level take step back and allow others to participate for the good of overall interaction. -
"everyone may walk at the same speed but remember back to when you were level 1-3; did you know where everything was?"
what's wrong with spending some time questing for a few levels to figure that out?
i mean, why do new players *have* to be immediately dropped into street-building at levels 1 through 3. frankly they have better things to do, like buying tools and figuring out how the map works. -
"it can easily get to a point where the "landed gentry" of the early alpha group think they should be involved in every project, which gives high rewards, isolating those at lower levels."
a misinterpretation on your part.
"high rewards"? are you kidding?
do you know how much money i've lost working on projects?
the so called project "rewards" are barely ever a profit. even when they are a profit, in the same period of time i could have generated 10 times the profit by doing something else instead.
project "rewards" just keep players from going totally broke while participating in building projects.
most of the time after completing a project i would have to go mine for money for a bit to *compensate* for all the stuff i'd lost over the course of the project.
everyone i know who started playing when i did but didn't work on projects is 5 to 10 levels higher than i am [or even more]. -
@striatic post #2
so, a low or medium level player isn't interested in completing projects? they don't want to add to the game?
sure, there are some things you probably can't contribute to. but with telepathy and your quoin count (over 20 i think) aren't you able to go and do or buy most anything? even if it may take you a couple of hours? i'm thinking about donating eggs. for a level 1-10...that may take the better part of a day to figure out where the eggs are, in relation to the project, figure out how to click the sign post in the upper level map, etc, to get around quickly. heck, potatoes. i left a teleport spot at one project so i could go buy some. had i been level 10, i couldn't have done that.
the comment is about inclusion not exclusion. yes, there are lots of things to be done. but why can't some of those, like contributing eggs and potatoes, be done by lower level players? you need egg seasoning, digging, chopping or mixing (at MCII i might add) that's where higher level users come into play.
i get that you've been playing this for a while but some of us haven't and want to participate. it's hard to do that when level 20+ players come in and contribute to everything before others have a chance. it's called inclusion. -
@striatic
you are assuming money is the only reward. what about the xp and energy and mood?
i go after projects, not only to build out the world, but also for the xp and leveling up. if it's so hard on the higher levels, please, stay away and let those at the lower levels complete the majority of the work.
then you can come in and finish the project. - p.s. - the posts above are my *opinion* and should be taken as such. as with any alpha experience, ymmv.
-
"you are assuming money is the only reward. what about the xp and energy and mood? "
no i'm not. just pause and really think about that statement and how it fits into the mechanics of the game.
first of all, mood? seriously? you can top off your mood in a few minutes with meditation or a handful of emblems. spending hours grinding a project and blowing thousands of currants to top off your mood is crazy.
same thing with energy. the best possible energy outcome is that your energy is topped off. this happens every 4 hours for free, so why you'd want to spend four hours grinding a project to accomplish the same thing is beyond me. you also typically drain your energy dial many times over during the course of a project, so how getting it topped off a single time is a "profit" is beyond me.
"aha!" you say, "he's forgetting XP!" .. but read my earlier statement. everyone playing the same during as me who didn't do many projects was way ahead of me and fellow builders in level. obviously projects are a lousy source of XP. this is because donating items to shrines and completing quests and performing non project tasks produces many times the number of XP a project does.
"i go after projects, not only to build out the world, but also for the xp and leveling up."
if you're doing that, you're doing something wrong, because there are far, far more efficient ways of generating XP. think about it mechanically. say you do a unit of work in the glitch world. you're actually taking two steps back to take one step forward.
generally when people complain about being excluded from projects, it is because they are thinking of the projects in terms of winners and losers and character advancement.
when you figure out that projects aren't about any of that, it changes the mindset. like, if you don't do any work on the project at all because you can't, but recruit someone who can because they have a skill .. you've actually contributed more to building the world than if you'd done it yourself, and lost less money, energy and time in the process. -
"if it's so hard on the higher levels, please, stay away and let those at the lower levels complete the majority of the work."
the people at lower levels can't even do a majority of the work right now. even if the project requires, say, basic gasmorgification .. that cuts out a massive number of players at lower level who learned another skill instead of that one. like spice grinding or bubble tuning or fruit changing. even the low level skills are widely distributed among many low level players and very difficult to recruit or have the right low level player randomly show up.
i don't care how many other people work on a project. the more the better. if you were following in the help channel you'd hear people calling out for help doing tasks *while* they themselves were doing the tasks. if they were trying to somehow "hog" the tasks, why would they do that?
i just want the streets to get built. period. throwing a barrier like a "noob quota" into the mix merely stunts the plethora of ways that work can be organized. it reduces it to a single, fixed structure with minimal variation.
things like massive barnacle hunts are much more inclusive and flexible. they allow low level players to get involved very very easily. the bonus is that unlike a quota system, if low level players aren't available or interested in helping [which is sometimes the case and sometimes not depending on what they are doing at the time] the project doesn't screech to a halt. -
I'm going to jump in and agree with striatic that projects don't help with leveling. I used to think like zeebleoop, but this past weekend test proved me wrong.
I play on Asia time (GMT+8), so a huge chunk of my play time is in the game's off-peak periods (which also means I never get to play except during weekend tests *grumble*).
I actually got to be a "major" (relatively speaking) project contributor on my Saturday when most of North America was in bed.
You know what, on a pure gain/loss basis for currants, mood, energy, XP... NOT WORTH IT compared to the alternative. It is far far more lucrative to just go mining. If you want to level up, go grind on mining. Seriously.
I will share: I earned more than 50k in currants, up 3 levels (I think) alone on Sunday by just mining. And I'm at Mining III. I'll bet the returns are better at Mining IV.
When you mine, you
1. grind ores to make elements to make Shrine powder
2. sell ores + precious gems for currants (very lucrative)***
3. use the gems to donate to shrines which together with Shrine powder, gives you plenty of XP to level up and emblems (also gives XP+mood+energy+skills unlock).
Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
Now the secret's out, I'll expect the caverns to get more crowded now. :D
So Devs, can we have projects in THE CAVERNS?? They deserve upgrades and expansions too! Sulk.
------------------------------
*** I gave like 200 sparkly ores to one project once, and the moment I clicked, I smacked myself. Damn, that was a lot of currants and potential powders down the drain. Lol. -
I still don't get it why people are so opposed to keeping easier contributions for newbies- especially you, striatic, when you're the one talking about how cooperation is the driving force of Glitch.
"Being forced to rope in a newbie to build a street" is exactly part of the much lauded cooperation between players, and helps keep oldbie cliques from being too hermetic. Being part of a street construction is a valuable experience for a newbie- it will teach them how to collaborate with others, and will probably teach them many interesting things about how certain glitch foods and items are made. It will teach them that you can, for example, give other people energy by meditating, if you have the right skill. And if the community encourages such behaviour then it will teach them to follow the example and be helpful, friendly glitches!
Isn't that what you were saying is the best way of playing?
It may not gain them as much currants or xp as grinding alone, but do you want people to be forced to grind alone until they catch up? It will get increasingly difficult, the older and richer the first players get.
You are putting priority on building as many streets as fast as possible, at all costs. Why? I want the world to grow, too, but not at the cost of newbie participation. -
I don't agree with the rope-a-noob concept either, but I understand where it's coming from. I am not sure the best way to fix it or if it even needs fixing. I think I sort of interrupted striatic's barnacle scraping party the other night with my own solo barnacle scraping--I could tell from chat he was doing some kind of organized tag team scraping thing or something. I have two kinds of mind about that experience--very cool the idea of tag teaming that activity, I admired the creativity of it, but my visceral reaction was also one of being intimidated because I was solo and they were groupo and more advanced groupo.
I have been able to participate in street building since my first post declaiming it as a party I couldn't get invited to, and I am guessing that is because the mix of items needed is longer and more complex. I have noticed that other players see it as something new to do, more absorbing than just working on quests or skills, and several players seemed to do that to the exclusion of everything else. Even at my paltry percentages of contribution, it's really damn satisfying.
I think that instead of making street building more inclusive of new players (because I agree with stri, there are plenty of ways for noobs to represent), we need to create *optional* activities, damn satisfying ones, for advanced players that involve new players, but maybe without stalking them like the Level 1 quest (which should be expanded to Levels 1-3 imo). -
I don't have a problem the way things are, but I do think a bridge to the moon like team projects could be fun!
it wouldn't have to split on level, but perhaps if you started on one side or the other, you'd get a token of some sort that would count as your team indicator. That would eliminate issues with someone leveling up over a random arbitrary level.
I agree with Striatic that people choose to do projects for lots of reasons. I like to make new things to explore, so when I'm not feeling like earning xp or currants, I just like to help out. For me, that's fun.
I also agree that it's likely a false assumption that higher lvl users are hogging the projects. I ran across lots of projects with parts I couldn't contribute to yet. Contribution on the larger requests like hoe-ing and watering can only be done so fast, and everyone has an energy limit. The time and energy I have to take to cook some eggs and eat them is also time for other people to drop things off.
Beyond that, there were sometimes places where I could help, but couldn't make it to before the requirements were met. There were so many projects open that it was hard to focus on any one of them.
Multiple projects around the world will allow people to contribute. -
"I also agree that it's likely a false assumption that higher lvl users are hogging the projects. I ran across lots of projects with parts I couldn't contribute to yet. Contribution on the larger requests like hoe-ing and watering can only be done so fast, and everyone has an energy limit. The time and energy I have to take to cook some eggs and eat them is also time for other people to drop things off."
Those people won't be low-level new people, though, because those probably won't have the skills or knowledge to act quickly enough. By the time they have worked out where to get the stuff they can get, probably the most basic stuff which you just harvest, you'll be back. Or someone else will have beat them to it.
Even though everyone has limitations and difficulties in helping the projects, those are always greater for the newbies. It's always much easier for the higher levels, and that's why I think they will hog street construction whether they mean to or not. If only out of impatience.
I think higher newbie involvement in projects has far more benefits than the fast completion of streets does. -
Here's the thing though: No one's stays a newbie forever. Yes, maybe newbies are going to have a hard time contributing to street projects because they don't have the skills or know where to find planks. (Or loam... I'm not a newbie at all and that was tripping me up this weekend.) But that's a great incentive for them to get those skills and figure out where to get planks.
Now, if say there's a drastic advantage to being a level 25 over say a level 18, I think that might be a problem, but I think once you get to, say, around level 10, everything kind of evens out for everyone. I'm not sure why that's so bad. -
Of course no one stays a newbie forever, but I think it's better to involve them early on. Why not give them a hand? I'm going off the popular idea that community spirit is important in Glitch, so if we're trying to teach new people to follow that same ideal, it's silly not to want to do more to include them while they are still young and clueless.
I don't think it will even out that easily, because it's not just level, it's amount of time spent playing, amount of items and currants hoarded, and amount of people you know in-game. I think that the older the game gets, the harder it will be for new people to get their foot in the door in a significantly satisfying way. If projects are a limited activity (and they shouldn't be too common, I think), it's going to be a mad scramble just to get in. New people might just give up, since we've already established the rewards are insignificant. And if the TRUE reward is being allowed into the street, as was once suggested might happen with the advent of private streets, then that reward loses most of its meaning if the newbie is one of three hundred who contributed one plank, and then ran out of options.
But maybe the suggestions are too extreme. How about if only some projects had restrictions? -
"I still don't get it why people are so opposed to keeping easier contributions for newbies- especially you, striatic, when you're the one talking about how cooperation is the driving force of Glitch."
"You are putting priority on building as many streets as fast as possible, at all costs. Why? I want the world to grow, too, but not at the cost of newbie participation."
jeez.. did you actually read what i was writing or did you just read what zeebleoop was implying that i was saying.
i think glitch should definitely encourage and enable newbie participation in projects. it's just that *forcing* it is monstrously stupid.
please read the following:
****newbies should be free and encouraged to help with projects. like i said many times earlier, projects should have far more "level independent" tasks, like the barnacle collecting .. and that those tasks should be a much larger part of the overall workload. the purpose of this would be to encourage and enable new players to participate .. could it be for any other reason?***
the problem are players who admit that gaining xp and leveling and gaining project rewards are a major factor in deciding to get involved in projects. i've noticed that players like this want a "reserved" extra special place in the project just for them. they don't want to collaborate or communicate, which is precisely why they want a reserved slot. they can just swoop in, do the reserved work and grab a big chunk of a [mythical] reward, without really talking to anybody.
that's not really collaboration, and if they want street building to be a bunch of parallel solo quests, then maybe they should just be doing solo quests.
"hiring" the required noobs to polish off a project isn't really collaboration either. it would encourage street builders to harangue new players to build streets before the new players have even fully appreciated the game world.
you say..
"It may not gain them as much currants or xp as grinding alone, but do you want people to be forced to grind alone until they catch up?"
and i will respond by saying that new players shouldn't be grinding. they should be first figuring out the interface, then master the basic mechanics of the game world, then try out a bunch of skills to see which path interests them most, and then they should explore a good portion of the geography of the game.
none of this involves "grinding". it isn't as black and white as "build projects or grind". although, yeah, if your primary concern is XP and levelling, you should be grinding from day one.
and when i say "exploring the geography of the game", part of that should involve participating in building projects! it's just that there's no need to be drawn off an organic exploration of the game world by street builders soliciting your services as soon as you enter the world. better is to discover projects while exploring and participate in some level independent resource gathering as part of your travels. -
i should probably talk about the barnacle collecting a bit, in detail, as an example of how i think low level project participation ought to operate.
so barnacle collecting is totally level independent. it requires a low priced tool called a scraper, and no skills to either activate or improve it. it takes very little energy. you just scrape barnacles, and a first level player can do it as well as a 50th level player.
i discovered a little hack for collecting barnacles. the hack is that if a bunch of people scrape the barnacle at the exact same time, they each get a barnacle instead of just one person getting a barnacle before the barnacle has to regrow.
so i was incentivized to go meet people and recruit them into a "barnacle scraping party" which would move around from area to area like locusts scouring barnacles. not going through the whole game world looking to convince n00bs to work for me, but looking around a local area for *any* player who had the time and the interest. level 1 to level 100.
so we ended up with a party full of players of *all* levels, lvl 5 to lvl 26, buzzing around working *together as equals*. that was so much better than rope-a-noob would be, i'm telling you.
"You are putting priority on building as many streets as fast as possible, at all costs. Why? I want the world to grow, too, but not at the cost of newbie participation."
no. building streets as quickly as possible and newbie participation are NOT mutually exclusive.
indeed, look at the barnacle party description above. it was the desire to complete the project as quickly as possible that encouraged asking new players if they wanted to join the barnacle scraping party. the quest for building quickly actually *led* to more newbie participation .. not the opposite. -
As a new player, I didn't feel cheated or upset that I couldn't help with every project I ran into. I'd see a project, check it out, and think, "Oh, well, I'm just not there yet" and then continue on with whatever I was doing (whether it was grinding, or checking out the houses, or surfing the forums, or whatever). When I could contribute, I'd contribute what I could, and was pleased by my ability to help, even if it was in a small way.
I didn't feel any sort of disgruntlement toward the higher-level players who were able to help out with the projects in bigger ways...rather, I was still spending my time marveling at a game where everyone above level 20 was working to *create* a world rather than try to PVP me to death.
Now, obviously not every noob will feel the way I do, but I honestly think that a lot of them will feel a similar appreciation and awe for the game. -
Geez, striatic, you wrote: "i just want the streets to get built. period." Among other things. So yes, I read what you wrote and drew my conclusions from your posts, your behaviour during street projects, your comments in the help chat. I remember how angry you got that people were taking resources from a spot most convenient for street builders and carting them off elsewhere; the project was the most important thing to you, and you expected everyone else to recognise its importance as such.
"and i will respond by saying that new players shouldn't be grinding. they should be first figuring out the interface, then master the basic mechanics of the game world, then try out a bunch of skills to see which path interests them most, and then they should explore a good portion of the geography of the game."
And I will say to that that it would be much better if we could help them figure out the game by inviting them to projects. And I don't think it will always be so super nice that people will think, gee, let's leave something for the newbies. No. They already don't. They will 'want to get the streets built, period'.
"none of this involves "grinding". it isn't as black and white as "build projects or grind". although, yeah, if your primary concern is XP and levelling, you should be grinding from day one."
If you want to be able to participate as much as possible in the world, then you have to level up at a decent speed. This also involves grinding. Have you never had a moment in the game when you're just not experienced enough, wealthy enough, to continue on with your quests? A player very often has to grind and it has little to do with simple XP greed.
""and when i say "exploring the geography of the game", part of that should involve participating in building projects! it's just that there's no need to be drawn off an organic exploration of the game world by street builders soliciting your services as soon as you enter the world. better is to discover projects while exploring and participate in some level independent resource gathering as part of your travels.""
I disagree that there is no need for this. Yes, there is a need for street builders to have to solicit a new person's help in order for new people to have a chance to participate. If the objective street builders have is to get the street built ASAP, and possibly gain a high rank in the project, then newbies are not welcome. Or rather, they are welcome as long as they don't get in the way, and if an oldbie has 100 planks to donate, they won't wait for five newbies to collect twenty each. Don't you see how discouraging this can be, and how it goes against teaching new people the best way to participate?
And I mean, what's so bad about having to go find a newbie instead of a few planks? Your street will get built a little slower. In exchange, you've introduced a new player to a very important event in the game, you've planted a seed of community spirit, you've saved street building from being a rush- a grind of sorts, really- and turned it into a real barn-raising.
Although if you believe that when the game is open to the public, people of all levels will neatly organise themselves into groups which fairly distribute the workload, then I salute your optimism and shake my head at it at the same time. It won't work that way. -
Cefeida, if you'd actually quote any of the multiple instances where i've suggested that it is important for Glitch to have increased low level level player participation, and make structural changes to the projects in order to encourage that participation, then i might take your post seriously.
instead, you're casting this as a Noobs versus Elites, Striatic versus world issue, which it isn't.
"And I mean, what's so bad about having to go find a newbie instead of a few planks? Your street will get built a little slower. In exchange, you've introduced a new player to a very important event in the game, you've planted a seed of community spirit, you've saved street building from being a rush- a grind of sorts, really- and turned it into a real barn-raising."
that's not community spirit. that's community by fiat.
i've already described how projects *already* have "everyone working together as equals" barn raising components, and how to promote that.
again you bring up a false dichotomy between bustling activity and dynamic progress and getting new players involved with that kind of progress.
"I remember how angry you got that people were taking resources from a spot most convenient for street builders and carting them off elsewhere; the project was the most important thing to you, and you expected everyone else to recognise its importance as such."
you misremember.
first, i wasn't angry.
secondly, nobody was "taking resources from a spot most convenient for street builders and carting them off elsewhere". they were locking off patches of dirt *immediately surrounding* a project where dirt was needed.
thirdly, i wasn't asserting that projects were more important than what the planting players were doing. i was asserting that project building was not any less important, and that for the two activities to *coexist* it would be much easier if the planting players simply planted in other places until the dirt patches were no longer helpful to the project.
lastly, the reason for pointing out this as a problem was that the people planting the trees weren't merely impeding people wanting to work on the projects .. they were impeding other people wanting to plant trees, because there are a limited number of places to plant trees and the only way to unlock more is to create new streets.
p.s. - oh and the dirt collection was one of the level independent tasks that low level players could help with. we want to help lower level players contribute to projects, right? -
i find the sources of disagreement here very interesting..
zeebleoop, saying that he is concerned with XP and leveling and feeling excluded from a "reward" which ping confirms doesn't actually exist.
cefeida, who in chat on sunday said that he disliked coop games and that he might not like glitch so much if it focused too much on collab play.
.. who then imply that i and other people who work on projects are somehow against new players and wanting to hog the work?
.. despite spending most of saturday and sunday night asking players of all levels if they wanted to get involved in sharing the work? -
We're here to do test work in exchange for early access. If people are hogging the top 3 in all the projects, and I'm not saying anyone is, at least the testing work with projects is getting done. Passing projects around won't really be a testing issue until they want us to figure out good game balance. The more brains in that pot, the better.
As for the eventual released game, the world is gonna grow like wildfire. I imagine that the old timers will get long strings of streets to take them far away from where newbies spawn, then newbies can gradually fill in the in-between space for years, plenty of kudzu for everybody. Projects could end up being a sidelight in the released game instead of a major thrust like it is now. Participation would be no biggie. -
tingly makes a good point and offers some needed perspective.
bonus this weekend of going fast .. we got a lot of streets built during the test and actually did discover a number of bugs related to street completion, right up until some of the last completed streets. - I think street creation is a fine thing to leave to the people who are interested in it. There's a lot to do without getting into street creation, and you get quite a lot xp/currants from quests, especially at the lower levels. Quests are probably actually a better way to level up. I have helped out with some projects when I could (collecting guano, providing planks and ingredients when I was able, providing a tool tinkering service--although sad that I got the big tool-tinkering quest after doing that!), and never really paid attention to the rewards. Being to help out was the fun part!
-
my posts were about my opinion and feedback on the game, which is what i thought the developers wanted from us in the forum. since it seems feedback should follow the groupthink, and the groupthink is that there's nothing wrong with how projects are currently, i won't give my feedback on them any longer.
and by the way, @striatic, if you go back and read my comment you'll see that i'm not just "concerned with XP and leveling and feeling excluded from a "reward"". i started my sentence with, "i go after projects, not only to build out the world..." and i was at the site of a couple of projects over the weekend and don't remember anyone asking, "who wants to get involved with "X"?". i saw a lot of "don't scrape alone" and "i'm grinding" or "i'm making 50 apples" (and i'm not implying it was you saying those things).
but whatever, point made; don't give feedback unless everyone else thinks it's a problem too. thanks for making me see i don't want to spend time in these forums. peace out. -
'first, i wasn't angry.'
You sounded angry, or at the least agitated. Sorry if I misinterpreted that.
"secondly, nobody was "taking resources from a spot most convenient for street builders and carting them off elsewhere". they were locking off patches of dirt *immediately surrounding* a project where dirt was needed."
That's close enough, the point is the same.
"thirdly, i wasn't asserting that projects were more important than what the planting players were doing. i was asserting that project building was not any less important, and that for the two activities to *coexist* it would be much easier if the planting players simply planted in other places until the dirt patches were no longer helpful to the project."
That makes sense, I don't disagree. I was just surprised at how agitated you seemed to be about this! But that's neither here nor there, I was just explaining why it looked like you were focusing on street projects above all else. You do give that impression, at least to me. It's not an accusation, just an observation.
"lastly, the reason for pointing out this as a problem was that the people planting the trees weren't merely impeding people wanting to work on the projects .. they were impeding other people wanting to plant trees, because there are a limited number of places to plant trees and the only way to unlock more is to create new streets."
Of course, I'm not disagreeing with that, either, it's logic. But it's good to notice that there will always be people who just plant wherever they feel like with no concern for how that impacts the world. It appears to me that you only see those players who want to play the same way you do, and don't acknowledge that there may be a significant number of players who do it 'selfishly'. Which brings us to this...
"p.s. - oh and the dirt collection was one of the level independent tasks that low level players could help with. we want to help lower level players contribute to projects, right?"
Yes. It's also a task which oldbies and richer folk can take care of much quicker, so I still see the risk that lower level players might not get as much opportunity as they should to contribute. I really think it's not apparent now only because the world is so small and we are so few.
As to this:
"cefeida, who in chat on sunday said that he disliked coop games and that he might not like glitch so much if it focused too much on collab play."
Yes, I said something to that effect. More precisely, I was reacting to your suggestion that if players didn't cooperate and socialise they would find themselves locked out of a major part of the game. And? I can still have a valid opinion on how collaborations in Glitch can work. I also provide the point of view of a person who, at their most casual, is not very interested in the effort collaboration, and would probably plant a tree in your dirt patch without considering the consequences for the project-building group nearby, much less the whole world. Now, imagine a whole slew of newbies who have the same attitude, and are as antisocial as I am. If you think there is a lot of worth in collaboration, you might want to rope these players into it early on to inspire a certain way of playing the game. If you think everyone should just do it for themselves, then you can leave them be. But then when they grow up, they probably won't consider involving new people important. You do keep saying we have to realise what impact our actions have on other players and the game world- well, I am suggesting a way to show new players very early on EXACTLY how that works. To have them experience it first-hand, under the care of an older player. That's all.
".. who then imply that i and other people who work on projects are somehow against new players and wanting to hog the work?"
That is your overinterpretation. I never said you or project-workers were against new players, or that you WANTED to hog the work because you're a meanie. I said what happens when people want to build something ASAP is they don't let the kids slowly place one brick at a time, they do it themselves. Most efficient way.
".. despite spending most of saturday and sunday night asking players of all levels if they wanted to get involved in sharing the work?"
On your admission, you do this not because you want to get people involved but because you want the street to get built faster. Now, this is NOT an accusation, I am not saying this is wrong. It's just that if newbies weren't useful to you, you probably wouldn't ask them to help.
And that is why I think newbies should be made MORE necessary to the building of a street than they are now, otherwise in the future it might become a scene for hoarders, rich players who can quickly spend currants in auction to get the desired items, and high-level players who have many skills and regenerate quickly. The lower levels in street-building might turn out to be a sad minority with no significant input and little satisfaction.
I could be wrong, but that's how I think it might go, and I think a limit on people in projects or the requirement for certain-level workmen can solve the problem AND give more benefits, which I already listed in my previous posts. Honestly, I don't see the difference between having a list of arbitrary items needed to build a street which includes stuff like jam and poop, and one that also includes finding workers who are not overqualified. It's the same quirky. Only the latter encourages the community to bond more than the former.
I still don't undertand why you're so much against this modification of street building requirements (i.e. the requirement for, say, level 3 players to contribute a fixed percentage of the items). Honest question. Because, even if you think it's not necessary, it doesn't hurt that much if it's implemented, does it?
(edited for grammar fail) - @zeebleoop, aren't you over-reacting a bit? There's no groupthink. There's several different opinions. I should know (vide above). You can keep on participating.
- Yeah, doing what the developers want is certainly the way to go.
- The next test is only new players, right? Maybe we can get some measures as to what percentage of them participated in street building, at what levels and so on. And I would love to see what they have to say about street building because, seriously, none of us are qualified to talk about the newbie experience anymore and those who might be ain't talking.
-
"On your admission, you do this not because you want to get people involved but because you want the street to get built faster. Now, this is NOT an accusation, I am not saying this is wrong. It's just that if newbies weren't useful to you, you probably wouldn't ask them to help."
you are wrong about this.
i want to get streets built quickly because it is fun.
the reason it is fun is because a lot of people being involved is necessary for that kind of building. the slower the build, the fewer people needed.
lots of people most of the time includes new players. that's GREAT. some of the time it involves only older players. that's not as great but still pretty damn good and certainly not a failure.
if you read any previous threads about street building that I've participated in, you'd know that. I think the first thing I wrote about streets was "finally, something collaborative!"
I said that I wanted to build streets, period, but that was in the context of zeebleoop saying his interest was also in XP and leveling. I was trying to stress that was absolutely not my interest. I'm sorry if you considered it out of context. which was an entire post about not hogging the work and getting lower level players involved.
"Yes. It's also a task which oldbies and richer folk can take care of much quicker, so I still see the risk that lower level players might not get as much opportunity as they should to contribute. I really think it's not apparent now only because the world is so small and we are so few."
digging holes in the ground cannot be done more quickly by oldies and richer folk. ok, yes digging requires energy, but even for a lower level player digging is one of the least energy intensive activities they can do.
so old players can sustain digging activities a little longer.. but when we factor in that hole refill time is the primary bottleneck, not energy, and effects high and low level players equally, you are really blowing the power advantage WAY out of proportion.
and new players get a full energy refill every 4 hours, just like everyone else, so if the number of holes to dig in each 4 hour span doesn't exceed their total energy supply [which is quite possible], then the issue of energy is largely moot.
also, if you figure the new players are getting food drops from older players, which is common, then the only issue is tummy size. which at the energy consumption levels we are talking about here is a non-issue. -
"the requirement for, say, level 3 players to contribute a fixed percentage of the items"
I'll respond to that. We don't know if this will be an issue or if most will even care. Barring low levels from street building may even be the way to go. The game still has too many missing pieces and rejiggers left before any of us can have rock solid opinions on these types of issues, but every idea is good to keep in mind until that time comes. Remember all the piggie issues we had when they were the key to the early alpha game? Ah, those were the days and now nobody notices the issues anymore. :( -
and just to make where I stand absolutely clear, because some people don't seem to think i want more low level player involvement no matter how many times I say I do...
I would be perfectly happy if ALL the work necessary for all projects was level independent, and that nothing was "reserved" for more experienced players due to skill lock.
just like I think a group of oldies ought to be able to finish a project autonomously, so too should lower level players be able to work in autonomous groups. sometimes. when necessary. but mostly players of all levels working together on the same things.
it is a more flexible framework capable of addressing a greater variety of potential situations than a fixed quota.
the devs probably have good reason for skill locking certain projects, so I hesitate to second guess that.. but I will first guess it. -
Striatic, I just want to make it clear that I DID read everything you wrote about the issue, at least in the threads I replied to. I'm not trolling here, I'm having a conversation.
The overwhelming impression you give (to me, not speaking for anyone else) is that you want to get the streets built as fast as possible, as efficiently as possible, and that's what's most important to you. The reason, perhaps, being 'because it's fun'. I, too, play the game because it's fun, but that's a blanket reason for other, more specific things. You take street building extremely seriously, more seriously than anything else in the game. I don't think that impression is wrong. (neither is the behaviour, natch.)
I never said you were against lower level players participating. But you speak out strongly against something that would make it easier for them, and has (in my opinion) huge benefits, and I don't understand why. The only conclusion I can draw from all that you wrote is that it would make street building less efficient, slower- or if you'd rather say, 'less fun'. I guess you also probably feel the benefits aren't as great as I say, or they're there already.
So it's not that I haven't read anything you wrote, or that I feel 'left out', or that I am accusing you of not wanting to include newbies for nefarious reasons, so no need to keep on implying that. We just disagree, really. I think it only works like it does now because we have a very small amount of players compared to how many there will be in the future. I think it will be more fun for most people involved if they are part of a smaller building group which takes a bit more time to finish the project and involves each person more, and that the benefits of people having to recruit newbies far outweigh the benefits of streets being built faster. I think higher levels and older players will always have an advantage over newbies in contributing, no matter how you put it, and that it might be a good idea to cut that advantage a little bit...for reason of benefits which I've written out so many times already I don't feel like repeating them. In a few words: noobs learn to play nice, oldbies can't hog.
I also think that everything can always be changed later so maybe this conversation is starting to get pointless. The devs can try it the way it is now, the way I suggest, both ways at once, a completely different way. They'll see what works best. - We all understood this the 4th time you two said it. ;-)
-
Yeah, I know. Sorry. I have issues letting things go. You know what you COULD do to shut me up is open the game.
No?
Ah, well then. ;) I'll just step away on my own. -
Since we had this argument previously, in this thread
alpha.glitch.com/forum/gene...
I've thought about it quite a lot. Tried to get involved more in street building this time around, might post my thoughts later.
I've got a different point to make, though. Debating things in the forum is fine, and I'm sure the Tiny Specks get a lot from all our feedback. But I really think that we all have to think carefully about the tone we use with each other and what message we're sending to other testers by hammering away like this.
Last time we went through this topic, the way things were going it actually put me off joining in the subsequent playtest and going back on the forum. Just couldn't be bothered to test it and then get into what felt like a shouting match afterwards.
Goodness knows what potential contributors must think.