Topic
More on Skills
I like that we're not so limited with the skills we can work on. However there should probably be some limits on it. I was able to learn mining II before I ever even had a chance to buy a pick and do my quest for mining I. Perhaps skills that are dependent on other skills should only be available after you've practiced that prerequisite skill a bit or at least completed the quest?
Paula
Replies
- I have to agree. It's so easy to just pick any skills to learn, I feel like I've wasted a lot of learning time on a few that I never use. I think it's great to have the option to learn all of them up front, but practicing or completing quests to advance in learning seems like a great idea.
- I agree. I have so many skills that I got, did a quest, and then haven't used since. I'm content to just eat raw eggs, so I can never be bothered to cook fancy things, and as a result a huge section of my skills go unused. Perhaps adding subsequent quests for each skill would be worth considering. This could be possibly be level-based, such that the prerequisites for a quest where a specific skill and a specific level.
- They used to have it so you grind your way to mastery. You can get the next skill after 100 minings, then 300 for the one after that, then 600 and finally 1000. Something along those lines?
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We won't go all the way back to how it used to be, but we are planning to have higher level skills be level-locked.
And I like the idea that level 2 of a particular skill is not available until you have used level 1 for a while: probably we will make those locked until you get a related achievement/badge. - Yeah, it made more sense to me that you could say, cook X2 only after cooking a bunch of X1s....There's no point in having the abililty to cook X1s if you could just "learn" to cook an X2 without ever exercising your X1 skill.
- Yesterday I was confused by the lack of information on what tools you need to practice a skill.
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Just a thought on this: I know that in the long run, specifically when the game is available most/all of the time, this type of system makes sense. But in the short term, that is while still in this mostly closed early alpha phase, it is important that as many people as possible unlock as many skills as possible in between full-game resets. Otherwise there is less exposure to high-level skills, leading to less testing and bug finding/reporting.
Anyway, level-based skills = good
ability to bug test = better! - Often I had too many quests on the go because I was choosing the quickest skills to learn each time. I'd prefer some guidance on which skills to pick up. Would character badges be a good thing? Combinations of skills giving one a degree of some sort?
- The eventual return of the skills tree will help with decisions.
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@Tingly I was about to say the same thing.
@All
I've sort of sketched out the relations from what I've unlocked so far, but without being able to look forward at skills that will be unlocked more than 1 step down the road, it is hard to tell what to pick other than the shortest thing. Also, the fact the game is locked encourages unlocking as many skills as possible while the game is open, and then letting one long skill finish out while the game is closed. -
Overall, I liked the new skill set-up, and although I had some of the same concerns -- feeling overwhelmed when I had a bunch of quests active at the same time, and then feeling bored when I had no quests left because it would be 30-40 minutes before I could learn a new skill -- I do also think the skill tree will help with some of those pacing issues.
I also think that it would be good to bring back the skill points accumulation in relation to learning higher level skills, as mentioned before, it could help bridge time between learning new skills, especially if you're working on learning a higher-level skill that gives new recipes, but not necessarily a new quest. But I think if was optional, that would be best, because the requirement to gain hundreds of gardening points or whatever was a bit grindy. My idea was a system where accumulating a certain number of the skill points would reduce or speed up the learning time by a certain degree.
In a related issue, I also wanted to note that I was a bit confused about the new system of learning recipes. The skill descriptions note that a higher level cooking or blending skill gives new recipes, so as a result, I didn't realize that one key sauce I needed to complete the grilling quest to make BBQ was a learned recipe, and after I got saucery 2, I was really confused as to why I still didn't know how to make tangy sauce or whatever it was. Maybe the rock could give you a bit of a hint when you learn a cooking skill and let you know that you might figure out how to make new recipes with a bit of practice. - The rock could be sneaky by saying you also had to make an amount of something which just happens to unlock the tangy sauce recipe.
- I think my unfinished&finished quests may have gotten wiped between tests. This most recent session I was very confused, to the point of feeling overwhelmed, by how to practice skills I supposedly had.
- Could there be a a more direct linking of assigned quests to skills? When you acquire a skill you get assigned a quest that requires it. Immediately.
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I was feeling very overwhelmed in the skills area. I could not actually play (kids *argh*) but I could set it 'learning' for me, which I did. But I realized doing everything/anything was just too much. But, it did come right in the end when I realized the cooking stuff appealed but the alchemy did not at all. So, by trying to be a jack-of-all I learnt which ones I enjoyed. I still need to delve into mining and meditation. I prioritized buying a house (finally!) over an orb.
But yes, a tree of learning would be very good it just seems a bit of a random jumble right now. -
I'm really enjoying the many potential paths and the ability to dig deep in one skill while having basics in a few others. This is going to make for more well-rounded characters, I think.
Agreed, re: needing to *do* stuff with a skill level before you can advance. -
I've only just logged in for the first time in quite a while, but to be honest I'm really disappointed in the way skills work now.
There's no connection between the actions I take in the game and the skills I learn. The time-based system just rewards people for being in-game. Or even not-quite-in-game: I've just managed to learn a skill while the game window was closed and I was sitting on the forum typing this post. That's just a different form of grinding, and even less exciting than the traditional forms.
The skill tree has always felt like the most problematic element of the game — not least because it exists outside of the game environment. But for a variety of reasons I'm having trouble describing, this latest iteration just makes me sad. - You can cheer up a bit, they haven't finished the skills revamp yet.
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I feel like several things are needed with regard to skills.
1) A clear skill tree. You need to know that the skills you are learning connect to other things and that you are going down some sort of skill path.
2) Quests associated with every skill. It's great that there are quests for low-level skills, but at eve the second level, you are left hanging. These should be bigger quests, larger in scope than just buying a bag. More than busywork, essentially.
3) I know that the levels are no longer related to the skills. But right now there is still a sense of "grinding until the next level/skill" and if the next level or skill does not have a quest to accompany it, the player is left grinding still. And while the grinding is enjoyable, it lacks structure and more importantly, it's not exciting. And as wurzel said, the leveling up when you are not playing is particularly unexciting. It's great for game advancement, but it's not exciting.
ETA 4) Learning a skill should actually making you better at something. Right now it gives you more energy/XP/currants... but it's not actually making the process any more intuitive. -
"There's no connection between the actions I take in the game and the skills I learn."
yeah. it would be nice if meditating made you better at meditating, or gardening made you better at gardening.
it just makes more sense, and lets you get better at the stuff you find fun enough to do at the most basic level. -
"You can cheer up a bit, they haven't finished the skills revamp yet."
I know, I'll try and manage a smile or two. But the thing is, I *quite* liked previous versions — now this is moving in a direction that makes the game uninteresting to play for me. Basically, I just find the time-based system odd and totally unrewarding. -
I think (and hope!) that this will all make sense when it is done: there are a few pieces we haven't got to yet –and everything is always a work in progress anyway.
In the not too distant future, there will be: (i) quests for all skills and (ii) you will advance to subsequent skill levels by employing the skills available to you (though they will still take time to learn, you can speed the process up through specific action) and (iii) the whole tree and various advancement paths will be visible and browseable (so you can plan ahead) and (iv) the familiar will be doing your learning for you.
So, we'll see how it all works. The is very helpful though and there is plenty of time to steer the design. -
"you will advance to subsequent skill levels by employing the skills available to you (though they will still take time to learn, you can speed the process up through specific action)"
i like this. i actually like the timer based skills, because it allows time to experiment with doing things outside of the questing and XP/currant grind framework.
it is also good for people who aren't having fun, and who think "maybe the game will be more fun once i can do X". they don't have to actively work at activities they consider un-fun in order to keep playing, so they are less likely to quit the game.
optionally speeding up the process by doing something specific doesn't interfere with the ability to experiment and it doesn't force people to engage in tedious activities merely to advance. at the same time, it rewards people who are having fun and being active. so everyone wins. -
"it is also good for people who aren't having fun, and who think "maybe the game will be more fun once i can do X". they don't have to actively work at activities they consider un-fun in order to keep playing, so they are less likely to quit the game."
True. But wouldn't it be nice if all the activities were fun?
I get the argument for time-based skills: it means players don't have to do anything that feels like grinding. They can just get on with exploring or whatever. But first time round (which is where most people will experience the game) will that stuff feel like grinding anyway? If it's balanced in a way that means it's enjoyable enough to explore and develop and follow quests — with enough character, colour, whimsy — then it's just playing. - I have no idea how to play the game at the moment. I logged in, have no quests, went to the skills page, pressed "learn" on every skill, and the loading bars began. I pet a tree, another loading bar. Seems boring.
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"True. But wouldn't it be nice if all the activities were fun?"
unfortunately that's not possible.
you can entertain some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time, but you can't entertain all the people all the time. -
I'm an eternal optimist. By "fun" I suppose I really mean a level of interaction or ambition or intention that keeps you from thinking too much about the grind. I did quite like the "please take 10 things to Uncle Friendly" way of getting players to explore the map, for example. More directed.
Interestingly, today I spoke with quite a lot of players who echoed Sasson: newbies who just didn't have any idea what to do. There's clearly a need for SHOOTMENOW organised fun. -
"True. But wouldn't it be nice if all the activities were fun?"
I had a conversation about Glitch with my teen son today; he's convinced that I'm playing a lame game.
At first, I thought it was because the games he tends to prefer involve shooting or other forms of violence. But as we talked, I realized that there's also another facet. In the games he plays, skills are involved, as in the human player has to acquire skill at doing things in the game. In Glitch, the primary human skill is clicking the mouse -- although the in-game character is acquiring "skills", they are still achieved by the human with simple clicks.
I do think it would be good if there were human-learnable skills involved in playing Glitch - I agree with clare on the human skill aspect. Nothing everything has to be that way to keep things fair for the... less-skilled... but it would add an interesting element to the game and make it more challenging.
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glitch is pretty lame right now. it is just grind plus transparently shallow level up mind addiction plus cool artwork. if all I wanted to do was look at cool artwork, I'd buy a comic book.
which is funny because glitch is a platformer, right? like one of the most basic game types, been around for ages, still popular today. the problem is that the UI and world design is so heavyweight that performance becomes an issue and relying on reflex skill gameplay would make the game very frustrating on older machines. I mean, I'm sure it is already a little frustrating, but it could become virtually unplayable if the platforming elements were pushed too far.
I think the best direction to go in terms of "human skill" is puzzle platformer/explorer instead of reflex platformer. looking less at super mario for inspiration and more at the Zelda games - which have medium intensity reflex and dexterity challenges but are significantly driven by puzzle solving.
monkey island might also be good to look at - there's a great remake currently available - in that the puzzles are less about figuring out the right pressure plate combination than finding the right item to use in the proper context. which would fit glitch's item heavy focus. - id like a mini mario game in glitch. That would be intense. Like rainbow run but having to jump on evil monsters and collect the coins. and not timed, just that you can't die.
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"I think the best direction to go in terms of "human skill" is puzzle platformer/explorer instead of reflex platformer."
I agree. I've always pictured Glitch in my head as a sort of Warioland-meets-Kingdom of Loathing affair. Time-based skills just make me feel like a rat inside an experiment, pressing a button to release the next little pellet of food: merely reacting to the tiny morsels of achievement that are based on little more than my ability to be present.
On the subject of Monkey Island, I always found the context stuff could be a little infuriating — thought this piece hit on some of the problems those old Lucas games suffered from:
www.rockpapershotgun.com/20... -
I honestly find the only real issue with the skills to be that I can level them while I'm offline. I don't even need to play the game to have all of my skills maxed. I think that they need to be level locked to make this not possible.
I know during this beta, I would start learning a new skill anytime I had downtime in a World of Warcraft raid, and I would simply let it learn in the background. No interaction needed. - They're headed towards something inbetween, increasing your experience in the skill plus a timer in order to unlock the next skill in the chain.