Topic
Twisted panties!
I love Glitch, I love Global chat and I love navigating the wide variety of players who participate in both. I ran up against a fairly common situation today in global and I'm curious how my fellow Glitches handle these sorts of encounters.
I've seen players speak up when words they find offensive appear both in global chat and in the forums and get mixed reactions ranging from supportive to derisive. We're all entitled to our opinion no matter where it falls on that spectrum.
Today, I mentioned in global chat that the use of the word "ghetto" as an adjective bothers me. I made a point to tell folks that I wasn't asking them to stop using the word, but that I thought it was important to be honest that, as a participant in the conversation, "ghetto" troubles me.
I received one supportive "thank you" via IM and a few groans of, "well geez Sloppy, so what's the PC term we should use lol".
If you're not familiar with the Jay Smooth "Ill Doctrine" take on talking about race please take a three minutes to watch this.
Back to using "ghetto" as an adjective. This explains my feelings better than I could. I posted that link in global when people asked me to explain why I'm bothered by the term. No one responded, which is fine. There is no reading required to have an opinion.
My big question here is: How do we respectfully let one another know when we our boundaries are being pushed/crossed? One expects a certain level of dismissiveness in overall responses- it IS the internet of course- but can we talk about these issues without brawling? Can I say both that "ghetto" bothers me and still let you know you're free to use it however you wish?
I like to think that this game, in particular, is a place in which we can talk about these things somewhat rationally and with kindness and respect. I'm hoping that at least 25% of you prove me right.
I'll be over here drinking chocolate milk. Thanks for reading!
Replies
- I think that you handled it in the best way that you could. Stating that something bothers you, giving your reasons and not expecting everyone to automatically agree and change their own perception of a word. If you made one person stop and think, then you have made your point.
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I don't use ghetto to mean anything racial. I grew up in Camden NJ - which is a pretty racially diverse {or at least it was when i was growing up} ghetto. Perhaps because i use the term properly, i don't understand as much when someone places racial meanings to it. That's just me. That isn't to say i disrespect you for not liking the word, and i actually, while still not understanding, might be more apt to not say the word around you because you voiced your opinion. That's also not to say i won't use it, but i'll be more aware at least.
And yeah, just because you don't like something and voice you don't like it, doesn't mean you are automatically trying to enforce a rule on others. Mutual respect is a good thing. More power to you for being able to have that.
I'm actually more offended that you linked to a blog called "stuff white people do" - equality means equality. Self segregation based on one's own race is just as bad as forced segregation from others. Just throwing that out there. - I think Mr. Rogers would be proud...and that's what it's really all about, right?
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removing my post. So sick of Glitch drama.......
Have fun with this thread. *hugs* to everyone. - Becca, I hope so, and he'd stick around to make sure I didn't drink too much chocolate milk as well!
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Good luck not having this thread descend into the same tired Glitch drama that happens in literally every thread. Here, let me summarize the arguments that the forum denizens are about to be put forth:
1. That blog is offensive to white people, despite the fact that white people in any predominantly white region on Earth have never been oppressed, enslaved, or otherwise put in a negative situation because of their skin color. To illustrate this point, the word "cracker" is actually just as offensive as the many racial slurs that describe black people, even though nobody has ever felt disenfranchised by being called a cracker, and is more likely to simply feel mildly amused.
2. I can say whatever I want, whenever I want, and if I say something that happens to offend the entire population of the world, they just have to deal with it, because you must be a literal infant if you have ever felt sad in your entire life. My personal hobby is going on walks and kicking all the children and kittens I see. From now on, I will only walk through the ghetto and kick black children, just because you tried to tell me that I can't say the word "ghetto."
3. You are not only horribly racist against the pristine Aryans (because you're clearly jealous) but also a misogynist because you said the phrase "twisted panties." - @ Pixieyelsraek: Self-segregation? I don't follow...
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This post needs to be moved to the Ideas forum. Fantastic new wardrobe item!
Also: much love and support for that whole voice-of-reason method of communication. - That's ghetto, bro.
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I depends on the context and the speakers, but in general, I agree with this post about the adjective use.
It's just not good ghetiquette. - Ow! My panties!
- I've had something similar happen when another player, who had quicker typing fingers than I did, asked a couple of people on global to stop making misogynistic jokes. Thankfully, they were persuaded to take it to private chat with a minimum of "but whhhyyyyyyy do words mean things?", so that crisis was averted. I wish people would just accept that there are some words that hurt other people, and hurting people is bad, so we should stop using them.
- @Munchma Kuchi - I sorta half-expected it to be a wardrobe idea myself, for some reason...
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Think a lot of this has to do with where people grow up and the slang that is spoken there.
From town to town different words might mean totally different things. Example is just saying which "part" of town you grew up in or live in - Southside, Northside, Eastside, Westside, downtown, etc.
This comes from a Hick that grew up on a farm in the stycks ..... - I agree with Addi Bee. You stated your opinion, you didn't demand that everyone conform to your expectations, and when you then opted not to close the Global Chat window, you didn't fuss that people were not behaving / speaking exactly the way you prefer. Nothing wrong with any of that. If you don't express a preference, no one has a way of knowing what your pet peeve is. Now they know, and, if they remember and care about your opinions, they are likely to respect your peeve in the future. Win-win for you.
- I was there too and I agree with Addie Bee and Lorelei that you handled it the best way you could.
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it sounds like you handled it perfectly and maturely.
the intent behind words matter, using "ghetto" for racial connotation or to denote lower class in a demeaning way deserves all the side-eye in the world but not when used to describe poverty driven ingenuity (e.g. putting tin foil over windows and using a fan over a bowl of ice cold water as a way to lower temperature). -
I could have sworn I responded to this earlier. ~O.o~
In any case, I agree wholeheartedly with what Kaya posted... & think this bears repeating: "I wish people would just accept that there are some words that hurt other people, and hurting people is bad, so we should stop using them." - I think you handled it quite well. There's been many a time when there's a topic or subject that comes up on global that has offended someone and thankfully, someone does speak up, but it's not always heeded.
- Without sounding abrasive or uncaring...simply get over it. It's a word. And it's not a harsh word at that. What do you do in the real world? Everyone can't be happy 24/7. Think of more important things. Now, if it was racist or sexist THAT would be an issue. I'm so world weary of everyone trying to be PC and getting upset at the slightest little hiccup. Get over it. Realize that you live in a big big world and some people may have the same hangups as you, but many do not. Think as to why something so trivial is made an issue. I completely disagree with "accept that there are some words that hurt other people ......so we should stop using them." (those words) That's insanity and censorship and something that I rally against in any form. I may not agree with the sentiment, but I will fight for your right to say it. It's freedom of speech for jeebus sake. Wake up people. How is tiptoeing around people and griping about things so minor helping us evolve as a species?
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Good post SloppyKetchup. People need to be made aware (kindly) when they use words or phrases that disturb others, cause they may well *not* know. Years ago, some people thought it was perfectly acceptable to beat their children. Some of us remember that! (ouch) People spoke up about it more & more, and its no longer acceptable. I can think of a few words I no longer use, I don't think anythings wrong with them, but if it distresses someone else, I just don't need to say it.
That vid Ill Doctrine is very entertaining and informative! Particulary the difference between "what he said" and "what he is", hadnt thought of it that way before, but its really true.
edit: I don't find the blog offensive, and I'm "white". (really just kind of eggshell). It has some good points. -
I think you handled it well.
Also, in response to Mr. Miskatonic:
"Now, if it was racist or sexist THAT would be an issue. " It is used in a racist way. Besides, Sloppy was just stating his opinion. Yours may be different, but neither has to be right. -
Let me add a slight addendum. I watched the video and agree with everything he said. I think if anyone is uncomfortable with something it should lead to conversation. If other, obviously racist things were said along with "ghetto" by all means call them out. Ghetto has several meanings. I'm not ripping it from my lexicon. I don't use it in a racist way. Part of the definition is
- A part of a city, esp. a slum area, occupied by a minority group or groups.
- Fernstream, not everyone that uses the word "Ghetto" is automatically using it in a racist manner. Maybe it was in Sloppy K's instance, but that is his/her issue. I can't speak for everyone, I live in the states. I believe everyone EVERYONE has the right to free speech.
- I gotta say that quite frankly it's tiring for people to find remarks offensive that are not meant to be offensive. Save the offense for when someone is blatantly trying to be disrespectful. Life is too short for stuff like this and the whole be PC for ALL the things is starting to drive me insane. It's why I hardly say anything at all to anyone anymore. Everyone is too sensitive.bah. Also, I think it's a little racist to assume that ghetto means black people. Just sayin.I'm done. cdn.thegloss.com/files/2010...
- Kittn....thank you.
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Mr. Miskatonic (and Kittn), sure. "Ghetto" has several dictionary definitions. But take a quick spin past the Google results for "college ghetto parties" and then tell me than "ghetto," as generally used in American society, doesn't have one very specific connotation. (Hint: when people in 2011 think of a ghetto, the people in that mental image are NOT, for example, 19th-century Jews)
By the way, not using words that hurt other people is not "insanity" and "censorship" but rather "consideration for the feelings of a fellow human." When someone makes a polite request that something you're doing bothers them, is your usual response "Well you should get over it!" ?
I am not saying you have to stop using "ghetto," or that you have racist intentions in your heart when you use the term. However, 1) given how that word is used a lot of the time, it's not unreasonable to consider its use anywhere from "sketchy" to "full-on offensive", and 2) what people feel is real to them. When someone says "this is how I feel," responding with "well you are wrong and should get over it" is not really a constructive choice. -
Respect gets respect. If you kindly say that words I used have upset you, I will most likely monitor my behavior because I respect you. But, if you whine and force me to....no dice.
This is what raised my ire.
"I wish people would just accept that there are some words that hurt other people, and hurting people is bad, so we should stop using them."
This is the kind of attitude that leads to book banning or burning. It's arrogant. I'm actually quite a sensitive person, but I think it's a shame to go crying about every little thing when the world has some tougher problems. -
Did I call for every trace of this word to be wiped from history? No, and I'll thank you not to make that comparison. What I did ask was for a little consideration for your fellow human being. Saying that a bigoted word hurts is not "whining," and lovely for you that it doesn't hurt you, but it does hurt some people, so a compassionate person's reaction would be, "Oh, I'm really sorry, I'll stop using it then."
You are throwing a tantrum like a child who's been scolded, first complaining that you can't use offensive words, and then when your thread is moved to off-topic, making a new one on the same subject. - Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
- Wow. And an adult would be able to rationalize. An adult would understand that language is very complex and personal and that words can have multiple meanings. Context is important. I have a problem with you comparing the usage of the word "ghetto" with that of actual racial epithets. I believe if you read all my comments I didn't lower myself to name calling. You did though. As I've said before...respect gets respect. I will gladly try to make someone comfortable but there comes a tipping point. If you spend all your time worrying about pleasing every single person and editing your vocabulary you would be a depressed mute.
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^ What Kittn said. (+ 1!!!!)
And my .02 cents...
I will preface my remarks by saying that 99% of my experiences with Glitch players have been very positive. But I am soooooo very tired of forum drama. Really, guys. This does not warrant so much debate. I know, I know... I'm adding to the debate. :/ But I don't even think the original poster intended to spark a heated debated or to ruffle anyone's feathers to this degree.
I learned something about internet drama several years back that has vastly improved all of my online experiences: When something ticks you off, go ahead and write a rant or a rebuttal and get it out of your system. Write by hand or in a word document. Then step away from it for a few hours. When you come back to it, see if it still ticks you off. In the vast majority of my cases, I don't even care anymore by the time I revisit the topic.
I've come to loathe global chat. However, I do enjoy playing the actual game. So I choose to roll my eyes, close chat, and play. :) - Funny, no one was upset when I referred to myself as a cracker.
- Little Violet, Are you me?!! omg because I learned that one too! Only problem is every now and then I click send anyways.
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Kittn,
That's scary! Haha! I would be terribly regretful if I ever accidentally sent some of my private rants. :0 But I'm so happy to hear that I'm not the only person who uses that technique to relieve frustration while simultaneously preventing drama. :)
Mr. Miskatonic,
You are a crackity-a$$ cracker, and a GINGER to boot! =P
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN... - Hey guys, while this is definitely an interesting discussion, it is also veering into being Off Topic, as it's more grounded in higher-level interactions than rooted to specific game play. For the record, I think letting people know you feel uncomfortable with something is exactly the thing to do in that kind of situation, without trying to hassle anyone into acting or talking in a particular way. If you feel that they really have stepped over the line as far as the Guidelines are concerned, a report via the Help Case system is the right move.
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Mr. M, you had me and then you lost me. Respect gets respect. - great! We are on the same page there.
Oh, wait, then you keep writing.
"If you kindly say that words I used have upset you, I will most likely monitor my behavior because I respect you."
Sloppy's OP: <description of incident where people use the word "ghetto," and Sloppy says "I'm not telling you to stop using it, but I want you to know that word makes me uncomfortable".>
Mr. Miskatonic: Without sounding abrasive or uncaring...simply get over it. It's a word.
Okay, you DID say only "most likely," so I guess Sloppy just rolled a rook on that one.
You apparently dislike people "whining" and "forcing" you to do stuff. Sure, I understand - who likes that? But when did that even happen on this thread? I get that you disagree with the sentiment expressed by Shiromisa, but "I wish people would realize X" is _barely_ whiny, and not even CLOSE to "forcing". Then you go totally off the rails with book-burning references and that classic argument derailer "since this is not literally the worst problem in the world, therefore it is stupid that you are worrying about it."
I have a problem with you comparing the usage of the word "ghetto" with that of actual racial epithets.
And I reiterate my point: Sure, context always makes a difference. But it is disingenuous to claim that "ghetto" is a word with no racial connotations. Seriously, did you Google "college ghetto party"? Those kids didn't choose equally from all the many definitions of "ghetto" and just happen to coincidentally all pick the same stereotype.
Sure, it's not a racial epithet per se. But it carries SOME baggage, to be sure, and it's not unreasonable that some people might have an aversion to it. - PS Mr. Miskatonic: What a surprise! No one reacted when you referred to yourself using an old-timey epithet that holds almost no emotional weight for the vast majority of people! Also: what the heck does that have to do with anything?
- Gronkles, I googled it just for you and I still come to the conclusion that what you are saying is where the real racism lies. To assume that "ghetto" refers to just black people is racist. Have you been to a ghetto? I have. I've lived in them. They don't have just one race. White people live there, Hispanics, Arabs, and the list goes on and on. Just because what comes to your mind is black people does not make it what comes to everyone's mind. Because inner city poor comes in all colors. And that (inner city poor), to me, is the real definition of ghetto.
- Read through everything, all I have to say is fair call for telling people why it made you uncomfortable without trying to force them into not using it. Not going to jump into a convo about the racial connotations tied to words. It's an argument that just never ends, haha.
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Woo boy, this thread veered wildly off course. I debated whether I should include specifics about the interaction yesterday in order to avoid this very debate. I figured that if I was too vague in the original post someone would ask for specifics in the thread. It's an important conversation surrounding language and race, but my intent was to hear from folks about how they would prefer to be told when their behavior is bothering another player. My original question remains: can we both speak up for ourselves and let others know we're not trying to alter their behavior? To be honest, I suppose what I'm asking is: can Glitch be different in this respect than every other place on the internet by virtue of some collective desire for it to be so? I'm not asking for hugs and rainbows (although the game has both).
And in case you're wondering, I am not a hippie. - In rl conversation, when someone said something ugly, saying "Ouch!" suddenly, with a "huhh?" face, was gentle but pointed. The person was made aware his comment was unwelcome, but didn't feel scolded. I think Glitch is *very* much like rl. Its important to remember it isn't just pixels...its someone you just haven't met face to face yet, an actual person. People definately behave differently online than irl, the anonymity makes them feel free to let the brat out. (I've been guilty of that) But I've found Glitch to be exceptionally civil, and for the most part, we can keep it that way, by example.
- Sloppy, sorry for veering, lol. I have to say I agree with Phoebe in that it will be the same as real life because you are still talking to real people. Maybe even a little worse than real life because people have a screen to hide behind so they don't get slapped when they are being extra rude. I wish it could be different, but I really don't think it ever can.
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As an aside, people generally do not object if a member of a traditionally privileged class (in this case, white) chooses to self-describe him or herself with a slang word (in this case, cracker). (Some people also do not object if members of a traditionally non-privileged group use certain (very controversial and typically racist / offensive) words to refer to themselves among themselves; that is another discussion for another day.)
This is not inconsistent, it is just acknowledging that the societally-granted privilege he or she is afforded (as a white person) is not threatened in any way by a particular word and it is also acknowledging that he or she CHOSE to use that term about him or herself (and did not use it to describe someone else who may or may not have given permission to be referred to with that word or who may or may not be offended).
TL;DR: It is assumed to be unlikely that you will ever call YOURSELF a word that you find deeply offensive (and that word in general, as was pointed out, is kind of antiquated, infrequently used, and also does not typically seriously offend people like other terms can and do), so no one felt a burning desire to come to your defense over your self-inflicted non-wound, as it were.
