Topic
Welcome to Enemaland! or, please make moderation in Glitch better
Yesterday, flask informed me on IM that she was muted in Global and Local chat, and the Forums, for repeated using the phrase "Buttfuck Enemaland", a nickname which she coined, to describe Asslandia (a.k.a. Shim Shiri) in a discussion about the aforementioned street [1].
Glitch prides itself on being a game for adults, and for having a community that is both mature and accommodating. To this end, even the most public areas like Global do not have filters, and only reactive moderation [2] is used. Before I continue I should state that I do not disagree with moderating public spaces per se - this is TS' server we're playing the game on, and TS' forum I'm writing this on. They have, of course, every right to censure anybody as they see fit. And when done right, moderation can indeed make for better communities - I say this as someone who has worked with moderators on other online communities, by making them more welcoming and removing unwanted content. The problem is that I think TS is failing, on three counts:
Proportionality - it should go without saying that the actions moderators take should be in proportion with the offence. The problem with reactive moderation is that usually, when the moderator take actions, the damage is already done. [3] Muting someone, therefore, should only be done if you believe this will prevent the user from doing further damage and where warnings for the user to stop is insufficient. Otherwise, muting is a punishment - a fairly harsh one, I might add, in a game that is ostensibly about social interactions.
Consistency - Again, as a result of reactive moderation, actions will necessarily be inconsistent, because not all offenders will be reported. To make things better, however, TS should make what is not acceptable in this game. The Community Guidelines are a good start, but they are insufficient. A player should never have to wonder if he would get censured for saying something. Players who have spend any time in Global should know that the discussion there can get fairly vulgar - "Buttfuck Enemaland" certainly isn't the worst you'd find in Global. Does repeating the phrase make it "excessively vulgar"? Does intentions matter? flask was worried that if she continues protesting about this case, he might be banned. It don't think any player should have to unduly worry about his or her ability to continue playing this game.
Transparency - TS has a policy of not sharing the results of moderation actions publicly. Although this is usually a good idea, when a player wishes to contest moderation actions in public, there's no reason for TS to not comment or provide the context for the case. Otherwise we'll only hear from one side of the case, and that is the side which is necessarily biased against TS. Being able to hear both sides and make up our own mind is always a good idea. Design, user interface, gameplay elements and music are all not above criticism in Glitch, and so neither should moderation and moderators.
In closing, I should mention that moderation is a thankless job, one which if successful the user should never see the effects of. They deserve all the praise they can for making both the public and private spaces welcoming and usable for all. However, TS has a history of being inconsistent and heavy handed with their moderation [4]. I think they can do better.
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[1]: Unfortunately that is all the context I can get from flask about the conversation. Human memory is fallible, and I suspect only TS has the full context of the conversation here. This should, at least in theory, give them the best means of judging this, which is also why you and I should think hard before making comments like this post. Unfortunately I think TS' action here deserves discussion.
[2]: Reactive moderation is when actions are only taken after somebody makes a report, as opposed to a moderator reviewing every post made in a space before or after it is posted.
[3]: In addition, as stated in the Community Guidelines TS expect public spaces to be community moderated. If I say something rude in Global, I fully expect to be called out for it. I also have the ability to block anyone whose words I find disagreeable, or leave the space entirely if I'm uncomfortable with the topic discussed. In short, players always have the ability to avoid things which offend their sensibilities. Reporting someone to escalate a problem should be a tool of last resort.
[4]: See: Lx and tis, Blue Waffle.
[Edited by staff to remove the cussin' from the subject line.]
Replies
- Removed because it really has nothing to do with OPs post~
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While I do find flask's behavior to be offensive in this case, both in phrasing and the manner in which it was used, I do think that the community does need clearer guidelines and a more clear/concise way of dealing with things. I have had many a time in Global where I have typed something and deleted it before posting because I felt like it probably crossed the line, and did cross lines others had indicated existed, only to see stuff like this and worse... which did make me wonder where the line is drawn, and what is and is not appropriate in chat.
So, in a nutshell:
Did flask deserve a warning for the phrase alone?
Possibly.
Did it come across in an attacking or taunting manner?
Yep, it did.
Should TS have stepped back and thought about the repercussions of "Asslandia" before unleashing it?
Absolutely.
Does this give a user the license to abuse the rules/community guidelines?
Absolutely not.
I just hope that this "learning opportunity" is taken advantage of by both users and staff. We need to learn what is and what is not appropriate, and staff needs to give clearer guidelines and more standardized corrections. (And if this last statement sounds "teacher-y," there's a reason for that :P) -
I didn't witness the event, nor have I spoken to anyone involved, so I can only go off what everyone is saying here...
If I had things yelled at me for saying I liked something, that someone else didn't, I would be frustrated and annoyed.
On the other hand, fuck has never been a censored word before on TS so I am confused why it has been removed from the thread header and people are saying the phrase used is offensive. I have checked with TS before about language and I was assured nothing I have used was against ToS and, trust me, I have used fuck before now.
Since fuck has been used by staff and players on these boards, and is seen in Global regularly without issue, and Enemaland is still in the title of this thread, I can only assume that Butt is the offending word here. This doesn't seem to make sense since this brouhaha stems from the introduction of Asslandia.
Now if someone is going to try to claim that Buttfuck is more offensive than just fuck, I'm going to call bullshit.
Of course, if things were being yelled at people in Global for saying they liked Asslandia/Shim Shiri, then it's more likely that there is the issue of attacking other players rather than offensive language. That being said, unless the person was attacking people, rather than simply disagreeing, on a level that goes against the ToS, players could all be frustrated and annoyed to the nth degree but, as far as I was aware, having disagreements in Global doesn't lead to banning when no ToS was actually breached.
If it was based purely on language, then yes, there is an inconsistency.
I have spoken at length with TS about inconsistency in their moderation before, and I'm curious if this is another example of that. Of course, TS have always had a policy of not discussing the outcome with anyone, citing privacy issues, so we'll never know. This is something that is 100% within their rights to do as this is their site. If TS have decided that fuck is no longer acceptable, that's perfectly fine as they set the rules, but it should be made known that the language allowed in Glitch has changed.
Further, in regards to privacy and different approaches to situations, TS have also sent me the full name of a player that I reported (it wasn't displayed on their account bio), which I'm guessing wasn't the right thing to do in regards to privacy, but it does show that different people take different approaches to matters. Some differences are expected when dealing with different people, but when they're acting on behalf of a company it is only natural to expect a consistency of policy. If there is no consistency then surely it is expected that customers will complain about these variances. -
Enemaland Bunsm'kay? Kinda weird, but hey, if it works...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWk... -
I understand where some of the above comments regarding TS posting details and context of incidents, but we'll have to agree to disagree there. I'm not saying that actual reports, names or any sensitive information be published - merely the context of conversations and actions. And I don't believe it'll cause too much rabble rousing - not more than the idle speculation which we'll have to contend with, lacking such details as is in the case here, certainly. As it is, there aren't many cases where players would come out and openly complain about moderation in Glitch. I hope that is a sign that the moderators are doing a good job.
I do, however, hope that the staff in Glitch can maintain some semblance of consistency in how they moderate and review player actions. I know, for instance, of a high level player who actively maintains an alt which uses each other's house. I have no idea what what she actually does in her alt's house, but maintaining one for the purpose of using the extra house is against the rules. As far as I can tell she's never been sanctioned by TS, and has actually recently been made a Guide.
In a similar vein, the game contains a good many bugs which players exploit - sometimes on a everyday basis, for personal gains. Unbalanced yellow crumb seed / flower costs, Dolls from the Rube and GNG Musicblocks as mentioned above, the fox that never needs baiting in Jiji Preserve, free fuel from merely disassembling and reassembling machines. Presumably, exploiting these aren't punishable offence, until TS cracks down on it. [1]
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[1]: Before anyone objects that these things are hardly on the same level, remember that for a few months in the middle of this year a significant amount of currants in the game came from farming yellow crumbs. I sell hundreds of furnitures and hundreds of thousands of fiber on auction, and I can assure you that the prices for these items will be significantly higher if the bugs are not fixed. Each of these exploits are easily 'worth' hundreds of thousands of currants. -
Boom and Bust, I'm still failing to understand why a warning and subsequent chat suspension of another player is any of your business. Can you be more specific as to why TS should have to release contextual information as to why someone was disciplined? What's the goal? So that we can decide whether we agree with the decision or so that we can avoid getting a warning? It's been made clear that everyone gets a warning from TS before they take further action. If players choose to ignore the warning, there are consequences. It's pretty cut and dry. If the player doesn't agree with the warning, they can choose to continue this behavior but they're also choosing to accept the consequences. Why do we need to stick our noses in anyone else's asslandia?
[ETA Thanks for being open about exploiting bugs for profit so that I know not buy buy your auctions.] -
Sloppy, you should not buy my auction, though not for the exploiting bugs bit, since it's safe to presume that everyone else does - but for the fact that they are almost always overpriced. Otherwise I would not be able to cover the 7% auction and still make a profit compared to selling in towers.
You seem to assume that what stoot says is accurate, that they always warn people before taking action. I hope that were true too - I pay for the privilege of playing this game, after all, and I care deeply about it. Otherwise I would not be posting this. It's just that after speaking to players, even after considering the obvious possibility that those players are lying, or merely forgot about the "repeated warnings", on balance the evidence still seems to weigh against TS more. -
I know for a fact two of those people received repeated warning LONG LONG LONG before any actions were taken and chose to ignore them. The other has a huge history that I'm sure includes warnings. Big shocker here: some people get in trouble and choose to resent the consequences rather than accept responsibility.
The thread you linked to does not say that simply having access to an alt's house is against the rules. You say yourself you have no idea what she does -- so you have no idea if this person is breaking the rules. TS does know what she does, or can know if they choose to. And they choose not to warn her. That's all I need to know. That's all you need to know. That's all anyone needs to know.
I used to teach, here and there. Little Billy always gets upset when he gets in trouble because Johnny was doing the same thing. Well, I didn't see Johnny. Johnny didn't disrupt my class. And it's not your job to tell on Johnny. He's not going to get in any trouble because you whine that it's not fair. He does, however, get a free warning out of the episode.
So free warnings: don't repeatedly harass people in chat with any style of language just because they simply enjoy part of the game you do not. Don't use a bug or exploit to affect the in-game economy. If you do that, and get punished, don't follow up by using a macro program to repeatedly pick up keys. It's not rocket science: that's why most players have never been muted or banned. And once again, those two got off light. This is a free game, and even when banned Lx was allowed to come back. If this were GW2 they'd both be gone, and out $60 for their trouble. Same policy in all the subscription games I've played.
On balance the evidence seems to weigh toward a few people whining. -
"[You] should not buy my auction, though not for the exploiting bugs bit, since it's safe to presume that everyone else does..."
Huh? It's okay to take currants from players who don't exploit bugs because other people do it too? Do you realize how crummy that sounds? Are you saying that it's Tiny Speck's fault for allowing people to cheat even when they admit it's wrong?
I'm with Red Sauce, a fancier (and tidier) version of me. -
@Red Sauce: I´ve been silenced in Global and had 3 days suspensions without any kind of warning, as in Warnings = "0", so no, not everybody receives a warning before any action is taken and that is an inconsistency.
@Sloppy Ketchup: Why are you trying to pick a bone with Boom and Bust in this thread is beyond me, please stahp, the matter at hand is moderation.
@Boom and Bust: Don´t step on the landmine, avoid it, keep the thread on track. -
@Sloppy - B&B is pointing out that auctions are structurally more expensive than SDBs. You should buy from his SDBs. Some people are willing to pay more for the "convenience" of waiting for a frog, but the rational buyer should pop over to a tower.
Okay folks, the "bugs" in question are the following:
"In a similar vein, the game contains a good many bugs which players exploit - sometimes on a everyday basis, for personal gains. Unbalanced yellow crumb seed / flower costs, Dolls from the Rube and GNG Musicblocks as mentioned above, the fox that never needs baiting in Jiji Preserve, free fuel from merely disassembling and reassembling machines. Presumably, exploiting these aren't punishable offence, until TS cracks down on it."
Yellow Crumb seed/flowers -- widely known, mostly nerfed. Certainly taking advantage of it wasn't unethical. Boring, maybe.
Dolls from the Rube-- I assume B&B is talking about the time when it was discovered that, if your entire inventory was things < 100 currants, you were more likely to get a doll. Certainly not ongoing, and at the time, I thought a pretty cool idea.
GNG MBs-- probably the most exploity of all of these, but even this one was a bit of a moral gray area. Either way, long since fixed.
Fox that never needs baiting-- I got 10k fibers the other day, used like 20 baits (and I light the baits 2 and 3 @ a time). So going to that Preserve saves 1000 currants (out of 80k), but since it's more likely there's others there, significantly increases your chances of not getting as many fibers. Not sure that counts.
Free fuel- is not free-- it costs both energy (to disassemble and reassemble the machines) and time (which is what is always my limiting factor, personally).
These are hardly JTAGing your XBox, and blowing away other players like they were unarmed civilians...
--Me -
@Mikah -- Stoot actually said
"If there is any sense at all in which a reasonable person would have to wonder if their behavior is ok or not, they would always (a) be warned before any further action is taken, (b) given an explanation for the warning and (c) at least one chance to make things right (in almost every case, we're willing to give people multiple warnings and multiple chances)."
Now, that's really not the same as "warnings are always given", even though some in this thread have paraphrased it that way.
And, personally, I'm not sure that a 3 day suspension doesn't count as a warning. I'm fairly sure a temporary Global muting does count as a warning, at least in the grand scheme of things, where one side is "We do nothing" and the other side is "Accounts are deleted with no warning".
--Me
ETA last sentence. -
Mikah, I'm not making personal attacks. I strongly disagree with the initial and subsequent posts made by the OP and have only responded to points addressed therein. By posting in the forums rather than on one's home page, one chooses to open up the topic for discussion.
ETA: Hmm, what I understood from the auction comment was that the fuel and fiber bugs allow B&B to produce and sell large quantities more easily than a player who does not use those bugs (and I'm not in total agreement that the fuel thing is a bug per se as it takes a fair amount of energy to disassemble and reassemble a machine, in my experience). -
@SchWM: I understand that your point is to defend what Boom and Bust defines as Reactive moderation: when actions are only taken after somebody makes a report, as opposed to a moderator reviewing every post made in a space before or after it is posted.
But what happens when someone reports you for something that is NOT a violation of The Community Guidelines, lets say "OMG he said a "bad word", just said it, and I dont care it was part of a friendly chat on Global and nobody was offended by it but I am because words scare me so BAM! report!"... and then a moderator takes that report and acts upon it based on the simple guidelines: "Bad word" was said + someone reported it = Glitchen who said "bad word" is a bad Glitchen, punish.
Now you have a unnecesary report acted on you and YOU are responsible now for it, even if you have a reasonable doubt to think nothing wrong was done because you didn´t do anything wrong... or at least it seems like that.
Again, Global is the most fun I had ever on an online community and I love it, but some of the mechanics of moderation are (or seems to be) open to a wide range of interpretation. Someone says "bad word", nothing happens, other say same "bad word" BAM banned, is just a matter of being online at the same time that other person that finds that offensive.
Following my (surely flawed) logic: Moderator action = Bad luck you were online at the same time that someone who is easily offended. Now that´s a Damocles Sword to have hanging over your head.
@Sloppy Ketchup: No hard feelings, just worried that the thread was about to get derailed, all peachy :D -
So, I think something needs to be clarified here: there is a difference between a "bug" and a "game balance issue". Both are unintended problems with a game. However, the first is a finite, and once tracked down "simple" coding mistake. The second is a mistake in design and can be much more complicated just to recognize. The code is working exactly as intended, but some part of the design has led to unwanted behavior on the part of players. Taking advantage of a game balance issue is generally not exploiting. Often, a game balance issue is so fundamental it is impossible to avoid. Bugs, however, once they can be replicated by a player, are avoidable, and thus making use of them is exploiting.
If you are uncertain that what you are doing might be an exploit, don't do it. Given how willing to communicate the TS team is, go post in the forum and wait for a staff reply or send in a bug report. Unlike Blizzard, they'll probably tell you if it's okay or not to do it.
Yellow crumb was a game balance issue. That herb was producing too many seeds, thus making it easier to produce large quantities than was good for the glitch economy. I remember a post of fixing a bug mentioned this issue, saying "we found this while trying to figure out why so many glitchen were growing nothing but yellow". Players couldn't make the yellow crumb produce too many seeds with actions of their own, and they couldn't avoid getting too many.
I don't pay much attention to gameplay bugs in Glitch except to report them, so I don't know enough about the other bugs mentioned to say whether they were bugs or game balance problems. But if you can, by your own actions, *make* something happen that seems to be outside of the normal behavior (I don't know, like you found if you put a MB in your "basement", and when you removed it you got 3 instead), that is a bug and making use of it is exploiting, and that is against the ToS of just about every MMO ever, including this one. -
@Mikah Yes, if the moderation was as bad as you suggest, then there would be a problem. The thing is, most of us see no evidence that it's that bad.
To get the thread back on track, I for one don't see why TS should have to justify its moderation actions to the player base in general.
However, I also think there should not be any moderation at all. Then, people who pick tasteless names or rant excessively will just weed themselves out of the game as everyone ignores them. -
@Janitch: I´m making no suggestion, I´ve described exactly what happened to me, I posted it here in this very same thread yesterday.
Of course that is just a recap of my side of the story, Mods where polite and helpfull, but the overall feeling I got after it is: "I got suspended for this? really? I mean, cmon! this could have been resolved with a silence from Global and a little IM warning, not a suspension".
Is my strong belief that a different mod would have handled it in a different way, and indeed it leads to think there are gaps on the guidelines that mods follow. AGAIN this is just what´s on my mind, I´m not pointing out some awful flaw on the system, just pointing at the cracks. -
@Janitch who wrote: "However, I also think there should not be any moderation at all."
Tasteless names and excessive rants are one thing, but there have been occasions where people have seriously harassed other players and said things that were threatening. Moderation is definitely needed for people like that. - Hey all -- Boom is just trying to stick up for another player and be kind. I actually don't agree with some of what Boom is saying but I completely heart Boom's generous spirit toward other glitchians.
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Sticking up for other players is nice, but is flask banned from the forums as well? And if so, it's temporary, no? Wouldn't it be much better if flask waited to be unsilenced, and came to talk about this issue herself?
Or at least, can't Boom and Bust post actual quotes from flask instead of reiterating what the silenced player said?
No matter your intent, Boom, you're really just starting a huge game of Broken Telephone. Each person that comes into this thread will make their own interpretation, based not on witnessed fact but on hearsay. Each person might then repeat this interpretation to another curious person, all the while getting further and further away from the truth.
This is inevitable.
I've been through a few online community clusterfucks in my life and they all start with words like "I know for a fact" and "My friend was banned because"
If the purpose of this thread is to start a transparent discussion about moderation based on flask's experience, then it should start with transparent facts from flask. Not from flask's friend, not from someone who was casually glancing at Global that day. From flask. -
Cefeida... the ban extended to the forums (which kinda seems odd given the offense but I think the ban is actually 'public spaces'). I have no knowledge of duration. I believe it is against terms to post the private words of another player into a public format, hence the quotes you have requested are in a grey area.
That's all the input I have for this format. - *munching popcorn* My only question: flask is a female?! Many mysteries solved by that one.
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OK, I have not read this whole thing but I do have to respond to one point: Inconsistent Mods
I have been an admin at a much busier site than Glitch and I will not be leaking any secrets when I tell you that inconsistent response is bound to happen. Just as teachers or parents or bosses do not always act consistently.
Why?
Because not two situations are exactly the same. It is impossible to make hard and fast rules ("bad word 1" is never allowed while "bad word 2" is always OK). The circumstances around the usage differ, the response and counter response from the other folks in chat differ, the history the player has with the mod or mod community differs.
ANYONE who expects hard and fast rules is either playing games with us or deluding themselves. We all know that the situation and circumstances hugely affect what is appropriate behavior. No one and no group can delineate every possible case and set a rule for it. Life is not like that. Glitch is not like that.
I cannot see where there is any room for discussion when the staff has made it clear that the standard is to treat each other and the community with respect. Why do you need an adult to tell you that calling out people as assholes is not acceptable in chat or a public forum?
And a 3 day muting is not "banning," it is a warning. -
munching popcorn* My only question: flask is a female?! Many mysteries solved by that one
flask's profile points to a publicly available blog which reveals that she is a middle-aged former middle-school teacher. That much and much more is in there if you take the time to browse it. In-game she has had a history stretching back to the Wickdoon Mood wood tree wars in which she was a major participant. -
((Removing what I posted about Flask's fraternity reminiscences etc. in response to what kevbob says below.))
I will try to remember to refer to Flask as "she." -
Folks at this point, we are going to close this topic out as it's getting far afield of general discussion and more towards a specific player's personal information, whether or not it is linked in a public place.
Thank you