Topic
Regarding Flash as a reason for closing...
I posted something similar to this over a year ago, but this poster said it better...
(what follows is a paraphrase of *my* question and the answer I got. Both the question and the answer in the link are more complete than the convo I had...)
Basically:
Me (and this poster) "Flash is dying. Why not do all this in HTML5 so Glitch can live on and be used on ipads, etc."
Staff (not sure which).. "nah. Flash is going to live forever. No Problem"
www.glitch.com/forum/genera...
(edited for clarification)
Replies
- ... at which time my husband said, "You'd better make sure they have a mechanism to give you your money back when they are proved wrong."
- What's your point?
- I'm a bit miffed that "flash" was sited as one of the reasons for glitch dying. All of the other stuff might have happened anyway - but they should have known better than to throw all their stuff in a shopping cart and run down the Flash road, when it has a big DEAD END sign at the head of the street.
- Do you want a medal?
- Key point: "one of the reasons"
- You're right. I just think it's a shame. I can't help but wonder if it would have made a difference.
- Yes thanks
- If what would have made a difference? If they had a time machine and had built Glitch on something else?
- I'm not requesting a medal for being bitchy. This is the only complaint I have made. Would you like such a medal? It sounds like you've been practicing. I'd hate for all that work to go to waste.
- What's your point? What would have made a difference?
- (I have plenty of medals, thanks! Mainly for my exceptionally pretty and intellectually inspiring nose)
- Did you read the bit where Jono said "HTML5 isn't unseating anything that can't be built in it. Glitch cannot be built in it. Not yet! Once it can be -- okay"
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Quote: (I have plenty of medals, thanks! Mainly for my exceptionally pretty and intellectually inspiring nose)
That is an AWESOME comeback. (I'm not being snide - I mean it. It made me grin)
re the actual discussion - I just want to take reality by the ears and shake it saying, "BE DIFFERENT!!!" ... "Maybe if they had waited 'till HTML5 was ready..." That's all. I'm sure this is one or more of the steps in the grieving process. - Shhh...enough...go play while we can....you'd rather remember that than complaining.
- It *might* have made a difference. I know people who quit playing because of frustration with repeated flash crashes. I also wonder if lag (the end of many a membership) would have been different. How many people would have played on iPads?
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Glad to make you grin, apologies for the snark. :)
Even 14 months ago, they were committed to Flash. I don't think many/any of us have a reliable idea of the immense complexities of running this game.
Rebuilding it on anything else would have been just that - rebuilding, having to deal with the foibles of THAT technology instead of Flash's annoyances... Another few years of building before they're even nearly ready... And other things weren't working, it wasn't just the technology, so...
As FlatEarther said, try not to get miffed by the particulars. It's all bloody miffing, but there's bugger all we can do. Except get out there and enjoy our last few weeks! - :-)
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When Glitch was conceived about 5 years back, Flash the best tool available and cross-platform to boot. But times have changed, and its strength on Windows did not translate as well to other platforms. The Mac implementation lagged, and the Android version culled after 2 years of a poor implementation. iOS never had a standalone, and can only run compiled binaries - imagine a new version of Glitch pushed out on the App Store every couple of days.
At work I'm using a Flash web app which was conceived roughly around the same time, and we see the exact same problems with stability. Fortunately the move to HTML5 is on, but it's going to take a long time and the first implementation (iPad) is pretty but featureless. -
In some ways i think this game evolved differently from what was first envisioned. I seem to remember reading it was supposed to be a casual browser game that you dipped in and out of to pass a little time.
Maybe some of the problem has been the game's evolution far beyond the initial idea?
We fell in love with Ur and wanted more and more. - I'll be brutally honest here (this is no snark, merely an earnest day dream), if we could somehow coax the rest of the world to dress like gleeful idiots, leave heaps of food on each others doorsteps and throw rainbows at each other in passing, I wouldn't need the internet anymore. ;)
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To me this post falls into the "second-guessing Stoot" category and I find it petty and destructive. You should be ashamed of yourself. The staff member who responded to that particular forum post, Jono Spiro, was their Flash optimizer and of course he thought Flash was going to be around forever. Stoot obviously knew there were issues, as they spent a lot of time trying to write that GPU client to improve performance.
If Glitch was to be browser-based, which was part of the core concept, Flash was about the only game in town. HTML5 would not work for Glitch now and was even less of an option a year ago, Java applets wouldn't cut it, and Shockwave isn't available on all platforms.
If you want to look for someone to blame, Steve Jobs basically killed Flash by refusing to support it on iPhone, thereby indirectly killing Glitch. - aww, love you, carl! :) Emo bear hugsses!
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That 14 months old thread came to my mind too, but I was too lazy to find it.
But I don't see any easy solution - it wasn't possible to translate something as complex as Glitch to html5 (maybe now it would be possible, but more than a year ago? It was only a really wild dream.) -
"I'll be brutally honest here (this is no snark, merely an earnest day dream), if we could somehow coax the rest of the world to dress like gleeful idiots, leave heaps of food on each others doorsteps and throw rainbows at each other in passing, I wouldn't need the internet anymore. ;)"
Oh lordy yes. - There wasn't a solution, short of abandoning the idea of Glitch being browser-based and rewriting in C++ (or possibly Java).
- The biggest problem is the fact that you’ve got a monthly model, but it’s so expensive to make content for the traditional MMO now that if you spend $250 million like EA did on Star Wars, you’ve only got 30 days’ worth of content,” he said. Old Republic’s big draw was an elaborate, multi-part storyline set in George Lucas’ galaxy far, far away. But once Old Republic players burned through all of that content, there was nothing to keep them involved. The cost and time required to develop more content for players to enjoy made it difficult to impossible to keep them supplied with entertainment for their $15 a month.“So you’ve made 15 bucks from the consumers, basically, before they churn out of your game,” Kern said.World of Warcraft, said Kern, didn’t have this problem because in 2004, game production costs (and players’ expectations) were so much lower that it was economically feasible to churn out content and keep players engaged every month, so they didn’t cancel their subscriptions.With today’s high cost of game production, Kern said, “that model is dead.”In a Warcraft-style MMO, players can explore cities and faraway lands, but almost nothing can happen that was not intended to happen by the developer. Players can feel this difference. They know when they’re being escorted through the world on a leash. They might tolerate the leash for a while so long as the experience stays fresh, but once it’s not, they have no reason to continue subscribing.“You end up in a race to keep enough content out there before the bulk of your players become bored,” said Jon Lander, executive producer of the space exploration MMO EVE Online, in an e-mail. “With [EVE], the more people who come into the game, the less chance you have of getting bored. That overall idea is what has kept us steadily growing now for 10 years.”EVE Online relies heavily on the interactions that organically take place between characters, rather than developer-created content, to keep its users hooked. Lander said that when EVE started out in 2003 there wasn’t even much of a game yet, but there were systems in place to allow players to interact. As people started to form bonds, the game became better and better. Today it has nearly half a million highly dedicated subscribers, but it took a substantial risk for the developer to release a game that depended on players to drive the experience.Taken from this article:www.wired.com/gamelife/2012...
- Interesting article Jellybelly. I think ultimately the success of an MMO in today's world also depends on how much the players can create within the world, expanding and enhancing it.
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The OP almost entirely echoes my thoughts exactly when I read the shutdown notice. (Well, minus the bit where it quotes Stoot; I wasn't privy to that conversation.) Ever since I started playing Glitch, Flash crashes and lag and overheating my laptop were problems for me, and I often moaned "Why didn't they do this in Java? Three Rings does stuff in Java! I never have this much technical difficulty playing Puzzle Pirates! Except they do Whirled in Flash--which is coincidentally the only 3R game that crashes on me all the time!" &etc. And the constant crashes are a big part of why I still haven't logged in much over the past few days, even knowing that Ur has less than 20 days until End of World.
That I would inevitably have to reboot flash or even my whole computer a lot to keep playing was a huge part of why I was not at all tempted by the real-money-buying-stuff side of the game. I guess if others felt the same way, and still others thought "Flash? But that's doomed," it might be a factor in how the game wasn't financially viable.
Of course I understand that the dev team had to choose a platform and throw their efforts into it, and hindsight is 20/20. But I've been frustrated with the platform they chose about as long as I've had a Glitch login. To hear that they cite it as one of the reasons they're closing Glitch down for good makes me facepalm a little.
Just wanted to support the OP. She's getting a lot of silly flack for expressing some (in my opinion) eminently reasonable frustration. (I'm particularly non-impressed by the "You should be ashamed of yourself" crap, which tends to come up every time someone posts dissatisfaction with any aspect of the game. Because scolding people for having opinions that differ from yours is a GREAT way to win friends and influence people, right?) So: ArtofHands RoboGirl, I feel ya. It's sad and frustrating, and it *does* seem like it was a problem that could have been avoided. -
I agree that you have a point there but there's just something about this post that saddens me. Can we just agree that whatever failings the game had we still had a good time and it's just not right to post such things when the staff can read them?
EDIT: And going back to what the staff said at that time I'd say it's not just Flash but a combination of problems such as sustainability (Do bear in mind that as diverse as Glitchen seem to be we're still considered a niche market). In other words there's no guarantee that the same might not have happened in HTML 5. -
(I'm particularly non-impressed by the "You should be ashamed of yourself" crap, which tends to come up every time someone posts dissatisfaction with any aspect of the game. Because scolding people for having opinions that differ from yours is a GREAT way to win friends and influence people, right?)
+1, if I could second this any harder, I would.
If there will ever be a silver lining to the closure of Glitch, it's that someone, either Tiny Speck or someone else who loved this game, will try again, and make something else as gorgeous and quirky and hopefully more sustainable. The future benefits from the past only if we learn the lessons it gives us, and talking through why Glitch didn't work might actually help those potential future game developer people. Knowledge is power, yo.
Anyway, that's just my two cents. And I really hope the staff doesn't see it as hurtful when the forum talks about this stuff. I hope they take it as a sign of how much this game was (is) loved. -
These attack posts make me sick inside and I will NOT stand idle. I don't care how many time you quote and -1 me. Stoot made the best decisions he could and it didn't work out. Second guessing his choice of platform, telling him his marketing was bad, saying his business model was bad, telling him 50-odd ways he did it wrong when he's lost a dream is a jerk move. Seriously.
Yeah, you lost something you loved, but in truth all you lost was a video game. You didn't lose years of hard work, lose millions of dollars of venture capital, have to lay off friends a month and a half before Christmas, and probably lose your chance at making your dream happen for a very long while if not permanently. Put this into perspective and have some compassion, people. - None of us are as H-H-HAWT as him either.
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It's ok! All calm down :)
If it were a simple choice like which shirt I decide to put on in the morning, then we would've just changed our shirts. Glitch as currently implemented couldn't be built in HTML5 now and I doubt it would be playable at in HTML5 in the next five years. The real choice was between Flash and native clients (or perhaps things like Java, Unity, etc.) — we thought "zero install"/playable in browser was essential. Maybe it wasn't but … what're you gonna do? :)
Porting Glitch as it stands now to another platform (any other — doesn't really matter which) would take 18-24 months … and it's if we didn't keep the game open (actually running the game itself is a huge amount of work). - Stoot, do you have possible plans for the future with maybe new technologies to maybe do something like this again? Just the possibility of a world like Glitch returning in a few years time when the technology is more solid and not going anywhere for a while would make me feel so much better :[
- + 1000 to Lucille Ball. I didn't post as much as I thought I would on the matter and mostly held back because I can be rather blunt, but I am admittedly rather frustrated to see the second-guessing going on here. Even if the staff says they don't mind do have some tact if you're going to discuss anything about the end of Glitch. :(
- + 1 Lucille! Thank you for saying what I was thinking but couldn't put into words.
- I still vote that I would learn whatever coding language necessary and work for free to make that port happen. 30 hours/week in my spare time, sort of like open-source goodness. Well, maybe just for health insurance. Can you just pay me in health insurance? XD
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What is the point of this thread? Is like "I told you so!" ???? rude, IMO. It is what it is. It has happened the way it happened. Its sad, it sucks, but hopefully somehow, someway a new game will be born from this that will be better and more awesome.......
(Stares deeply at the devs and begging for them to start up something new......and better) -
stoot said: "Porting Glitch as it stands now to another platform (any other — doesn't really matter which) would take 18-24 months … and it's if we didn't keep the game open (actually running the game itself is a huge amount of work)."
Okay, so we all meet back here in 2 years time! Excellent! I'll be here! ;) <3 - Hey Lucille... I <3 you. I think you hit it perfectly. *hugs*
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i just assume there's a lot that i don't understand and i'm not going to understand because i don't have all the insider poop.
i read what stoot said in the interviews.
i believe he was trying out a crazy, amazing thing and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.
that we care so much speaks strongly to what an awesome thing it was.
later, maybe, there will be another home for us in some platform we haven't even considered. -
Thanks for understanding stoot! I am grateful I had a chance to play Glitch. I am sad it couldn't continue. I'm seeing a ray of hope in stoot's " Porting Glitch as it stands now to another platform (any other — doesn't really matter which) would take 18-24 months … and it's if we didn't keep the game open (actually running the game itself is a huge amount of work)."
I'm happy to wait 18-24 months. Let me know if keeping my subscription going would help you guys at all.
Axa (really really hoping I'm not grasping at straws/starting a wild rumor on what's next for stoot and tiny speck.;>) -
See you in 2 years Wynella :) I can sort of understand these posts popping up, it's just desperation to see this beautiful game stay rather than an attack I think (hope). But.... it aint happening and so it's certainly time to just let it go and enjoy some glitching for the 19 days left...
Ahhhhh.. I do believe I have reached acceptance (let's out a big sigh but still looks forward to Glitch 2) -
Games don't necessarily belong on HTML5 ....eta YET....
Just like the pc is dying brigade bleat about the death of the gamer set.
Glitch could have lived amongst the gamer set - pc based with additional html5 tweaks.
adds hashtag interoperability needs defination... -
Responses in order of posting
@ shexxy thank you for a reasonable discussion, and for choosing to lighten things up
@ Carl - LOVE it. I'll probably dream about that tonight.
@ Lucille - This was not an attack, and I'm totally not ashamed. I had exactly one gripe about the shut down. I wrote exactly one post. Writing such as yours is the reason most of my Glitch friends don't even read the forums. I know of at least one person who left the game because of it.
@Neko, Vort, Ella and anyone else who was reasonable above - thank you!
I am sad, and I found this one element of the situation frustrating - so I said so.
LB - in your haste to splank me, you probably didn't bother to read this part of the discussion:
"I just want to take reality by the ears and shake it saying, "BE DIFFERENT!!!" ... "Maybe if they had waited 'till HTML5 was ready..." That's all. I'm sure this is one or more of the steps in the grieving process. "
Thank you Stoot and friends for a really great adventure. The game has been a wonderful experience - so glad to have been a part of it. -
@Axa, I think you are grasping at straws. Stoot's off to another project judging by his Tweet. "To be clear: Tiny Speck is not closing, just Glitch. There will be more to say about that in the future, but: you will know it well. Well."
@ArtOfHands RoboGirl - You just don't get it, do you? - Lucille why dont you try to lighten up for others,we all feel so very sad and God knows we don`t need blah blah blah from you.
- +1000 and about time.
- how to save glitch www.glitch.com/forum/genera...
- +1 Jelly.
- @Lucille, please, please stop. You're not helping and frankly, I think you are being unkind. If I had to name the thing I value most about Glitch, it is its emphasis in game on supporting and encouraging kindness. I value it in the forums, too. We're all sad. I know you're sad, too. Just let us all be sad the way we are being sad. I'll support you being sad your way as long as you don't keep trying to insist that we all comport to your way.
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Like I said — let's calm down :)
It's ok, on both sides. There's no sense getting angry about this conversation. Best to let it go and move on. Opinions were expressed and it's not like this is going to turn fascinating, but some other threads might turn fascinating so let's lock this one up.