Topic
I do not speak for the trees.
During the last test, I noticed (as did others) a noticeable lack of certain trees, and a larger than usual number of failing trees. Several players took steps to plant new trees and some even suggested a kind of PSA to tell new players that their focus on harvesting over petting/watering was creating a paucity that was harming everyone.
What I took from that was the painful realization that what I thought I wanted from Glitch..um, no, I don’t want it so much. I understand the overall idea of Glitch is that players have a direct impact on the fecundity (or lack thereof) of their environment via their in-game choices, and that the epic commission of each player is to prevent disemprobablization. Which I dig. But seeing it played out via the tree crisis (or pig crisis, or whatever) is giving me a terrible sinking feeling. Using my focusing orb, I can see a possible future of Glitch and it’s filled with eco-nags irritating new players, and older players taking on a parental responsibility that will end up feeling like work, not play.
I love playing this game, but I was hoping that disemprobablization would not look so very much like such simplified cause and effect, and I am hoping VERY MUCH that I can blame it on the alpha, and it all being very early on and such. I am hoping that the evidence of disemprobablization will take on much less obvious (and frankly, tiresome) forms. Instead of not petting trees leading to fewer trees, let it lead to something else, like the spawning of resentful trees that are harder to contend with---more like Alice in Wonderland, and less like a Celebrity Kid's Book with a Pompous Lesson.
It's painful to write this, but...well.
Replies
- Piggies eat trees remember :)
- Older players won't be around newbies all that much.
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Although I agree with most everything you said, I might be the only one who totally doesn't mind going around and tending trees for everyone. The idea of collaborative world-changing still ties in to the idea of needing municipal services. I don't mind being a janitor. Surely I'm not alone.
But your idea of resentful trees is awesome. -
"I don't mind being a janitor. Surely I'm not alone."
we will see, i guess.
lalu is right tho. it is tiresome, primarily because glitch does not elevate the struggle to keep the trees alive. there is little feedback and no triumphal narrative that you can slot yourself into. it isn't like you grow a big monster epic tree as a result of being a careful custodian, you just kind of circle a track watering trees, and they don't die, and then you do it again.
because of the lack of narrative, you become distanced from the game and acutely aware that you are sitting at a computer terminal, clicking the same buttons on the same trees over and over again in a kind of sisyphean iteration.
but there is a framework for such a narrative, with the giants and all, so i'm not super pessimistic about that.
"Older players won't be around newbies all that much."
why not? beefcake suggested to me last test that if gathering basic components for advanced recipes was becoming tiresome, i should rope some n00bs into collecting basic ingredients for me and share a cut of the foods i produced, or pay them in currants. clearly interaction between players of various levels is intended, or at least anticipated. -
@Striatic/@Beefcake - That's such a brilliant idea, with the getting underlings to help you in return for items. Mostly I was just loaning currants and collecting them back - but that adds an even more amazing level of social interaction...because not only are you a producer of goods to help you and them, but you become a mentor of sorts too. It's in your best interest that they know where and how to get the best of the best ingredients, teaching them the game mechanics along the way.
See, that's a level of interaction that I wouldn't have even considered that the game already contains. I'll have to try it out next run. It would be awesome to have a place to offer services - although, I guess the market is for that. But like a classified ad or something...some sort of sign, or listing.
Re: Custodial work
You make a good point. There is no other feedback than knowing that the tree is doing ok. Having affinity might be a cool way of doing it. - Or maybe trees you've personally watered (several times?) would give you a better harvest? That might be hard to code though, I'd imagine.
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"Older players won't be around newbies all that much." Really? I guess that's true, and that's a bit depressing too.
And as for the bit about piggies eating trees..I remember stoot mentioning it in the Help chat the other day and I my reaction was, "And I am supposed to figure that out how?"...if the ecosystem is that complex, which is fantastic and awesome, I would like there to be ways to suss that info out other than overhearing in chat, or joining the strategy group (no offense to the founder of that group). If that is something you will always have to learn from someone whose been there longer, i.e., an older player, then having n00bs and oldies not be around each other much sort of sucks.
I do like the idea of roping new players in for one's grunt work, although I confess I would never have thought of that (too shy to ask).
Is this game really so full of latitude, that it's the players who are playing it in run-of-the-mill ways? And if that is the case, they need some kind of vapor trail to follow, something between no clues at all and a comprehensive strategy wiki to slavishly read. - The massive size of the world will make newbie contact much less than now. If recruiting newbies is important, there won't be enough to go around - 100,000 players and 20,000 newbies, maybe only 2,000 on per hour! I'll have to capture a few thousand and put them in my backyard.
- Beware of the vegans.
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"That's such a brilliant idea, with the getting underlings to help you in return for items."
it's just an idea, and actually slightly exploitive the way the game is currently set up, because merely collecting basic items could stunt progress up the skill tree since it is low XP generating and XP leads to important energy and mood capacity increases as you level. it also wouldn't accomplish certain achievements that are necessary to unlock recipes and so on.
there's probably a fair balance but since they are new players they are at a disadvantage for knowing what that is. besides, they're going to be too occupied with questing to think it worthwhile unless the good being produced was otherwise impossible to gather and necessary to their current quest.
anyway, you wouldn't need many newbies to do it. given the current limited world, five newbies could just orbit groddle constantly harvesting enough bubbles and spice to satisfy the needs of 100s of players, because if all they did was harvest, they could harvest *everything* very quickly.
as the world scales up, i bet a 5 to 100 ratio could be maintained. -
Maybe it could be simpler if the giants would imagine rain. And animals that can pet the trees for us.
Just enough to keep the trees barely alive--basically they'd always be on the verge of dying if no one actually watered them, but at least we wouldn't have so many empty plots.
Of course, that would "cement" the trees, making it impossible to kill the trees to plant a new one to solve an issue like an overabundance of fruit trees and no spice trees (which can lead to a oligopoly of spice trading by people who have spice trees in their houses.
There, no nagging the player. And living trees. We're all happy! - you know, it'd probably be enough for the trees to just "look sick" before vanishing - although cranky, resentful trees with personalities that complain when you pick without watering could be rather humourous.
- It would be humorous, but it seems a little on the "eco-nags irritating new players" side. ^^;
- if the trees themselves are doing it, it isn't so much nagging as instructive. i mean you can't really resent a tree who just wants a goshdarned drink now and then in return for its fruits in the same way that you might resent another player hectoring you into 'doing your part'.
- Maybe you can lose energy for cutting yourself on the hardened, not-wet bark of the tree.
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I was thinking the same thing Dryea, having some sort of penalty for not giving back. But it would have to be enough of an energy loss to make it painful. Or maybe the cumulative effect could be placed on the player rather than on the tree.
Meaning, if you don't give back enough overall you lose energy or mood faster or don't level up as fast until your balance of giving back has equaled or bettered your taking ways. So you could take from a particular tree or 10 and be ok as long as your general nature of giving was making up for those moments when you only take. - Maybe your mood can go down faster because you start feeling bad that you're not giving back. ^^
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on the other hand, if you need to give players a penalty in order to do something, is it really a fun thing to do?
and if it isn't a fun thing to do, why should the game force people to do it?
i think what lalu was getting at, and i agree, is that if you're going to penalize players or encourage them or whatever, just do it in a novel and entertaining way. that's more important than pretty much anything else. -
Maybe the trees can make little smiley faces when you do stuff to them.
If you harvest them without helping them first, there's a little "schrrroooo" noise and a sad face pops out from the tree. If you help them, a little "thrcddinnggg-oouuhhhhhhhhhhhh-hahahhaahhehhaha" (that's a rising pitch followed by a ding, followed by the angelic chorus noise, followed by a child's giggle) noise sounds and a glowing happy face appears. ^^ -
At the end of the day, a tree is still just a tree. I think the noise making is going a littttle too far... :)
Right now, the way the game shows you to interact with trees, in my mind, is perfect. It's not being pushy and it's certainly not punishing you. Imagine going after a quest, having to go to different vendors. And each tree you go past does an action or makes a noise, kinda annoying. Newbies won't be interesting in trees because of the sheer amount of other things to do at the start of the game. But older players will occasionally take the time to pet or water a tree (with higher skills, there's a chance of getting a reward isn't there?). As in most aspects of the game, it's the group effort that makes the game fun and playable, and that is why I admire Glitch. -
"if you're going to penalize players or encourage them or whatever, just do it in a novel and entertaining way."
Well, yes, for sure, but like you said, it's more about the narrative of the trees than the trees themselves. - I don't know, i think it'd be cool if the trees turned into scary wizard of oz type trees and eventually took you away to 'tree jail' for a timeout if you didn't water / pet them enough.
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A game shouldn't have to many *you must or else* elements in it. At least not with the consequence of a penalty. Sure, you have to learn a certain skill in order to do a specific action, but whether you learn that skill or not is your choice. If you get spanked because you neglected to take care of the forest that choice is taken away from you. (Although I do admit the image of a tree spanking you while you walk by amuses me.)
Taking care of energy and mood (the only elements of Glitch which you have to look after or else you get punished, right?) is enough I think. And I really consider running out of energy more as gate to Hell than a penalty.
There are too many *musts* in real life already - I have no need for more. -
"There are too many *musts* in real life already - I have no need for more."
'Zactly-- although the game is built on the concept of individual impact on the aggregate, I don't want it to fall into didacticism to express that idea. - I actually like the fact that the trees or piggies die if we don't take care of them. I just think that it's been accelerated for alpha and that it should take longer for it to happen. I think many of us were caught by surprise by this but it'll soon become part of the "common knowledge" and people will be more careful. I'd like to see how things will play out as is (but perhaps with slower decay rates) before making changes.
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I didn't realise that the red heart and blue waterdrop meant that it wanted petting and watering until I planted my own tree and was either told or figured out that I had to water and pet them. And then I noticed that the icons went grey. Perhaps the trees could tell newbies that they need watering and petting - and introduce the idea of some communal activity away from just doing your own thing.
Do you get a reward for looking after communal trees/pigs/etc? If you were told that, then that might encourage the right behaviour. -
The pet rock already tells you to water and pet trees in the tutorial, doesn't it?
I propose we just leave the trees as is and I'll just stop complaining about the trees dying. Somehow I feel that this entire thread is my fault, and it sorta went waay out of hand. ._. -
Dryea, it's not about anything you said and it's not about the trees --remember, I am not speaking for them ;-)
The trees will be whatever the devs decide they will be, whether that is the current incarnation or some kind of freaky-deaky S&M spank-you trees.
I am just going to go by the mantra "Practice and all is coming." and hope for the best! - I'm going to tell myself "Enjoy life, since it could always be worse." ^^
- ooh, perhaps some edit*giants should actually want the piggies and trees to die! then you'd have anti herd skills and anti forestry skills.
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Some Giants you mean. :P
But everything we see is supposed to be in the Giants' imagination... That'd be like trying to kill their own imaginations. :P
And... we're trying to prevent disemprobablization here... not to cause it. ^^ - We need trees to die sometimes, like when there are few patches for newbies to tend.
- That is true. But if everything is dead it looks bad. We need to maintain a balance. ^^
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"But if everything is dead it looks bad."
i dunno. some of the giants could be misanthropic goth types who really like a barren landscape and mournful moaning of the wind through dead branches and whatnot. -
To *me* it looks bad if everything is dead. And as an alpha tester, I'm free, if not obligated, to express my opinion. Don't tell me my opinion is invalid. ^^
Of course, you're free to voice your opinion as well, but I don't appreciate others expressing their opinions about not being allowed to have my opinions. :P -
"I don't appreciate others expressing their opinions about not being allowed to have my opinions."
If you meant that that happened, Striatic said "I dunno," not "stop giving us your opinions." If not, nevermind. -
I don't know what I was talking about.
Sorry.
._. -
In the real world, well-tended trees bear more fruit, right? So maybe simply petting or watering a tree before you harvest from it means you get a bonus fruit or three in the same amount of harvesting time. Seems like that'd be an easy and "probable" resolution to it.
Maybe this already happens, but I haven't seen any mention of it yet. -
"some of the giants could be misanthropic goth types who really like a barren landscape and mournful moaning of the wind through dead branches and whatnot."
That reminds me of the game Flower. There was one whole entire section that was this barren, dark, broken down space, the polar opposite of all the cheerful fields and trees and such. Within the narrative of that game, it was really effectively frightening and oh so perfectly awesome. - Well, I do think other giants would want things to be well tended and happy, but if we get to hitch our wagon to a giants ideology, you'd have groups of players supporting each one. That tension, push and pull, adds some innate competition and could spur teamwork and a sense of purpose for players.
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@Lalu
I have to play Flower! DX
I've been wanting to play it forever, but I don't have any game consoles. :(
@Jaen Padryga
I support Lem. ^^ But then... the giants are all friends and often agree with each other... o.o That's why we have one big world formed of *all* their imaginations, not a ton of separate ones. :P As the leaderboards say, "Giants aren't naturally very competitive."
@charliepark
Right now, you can sometimes get special rewards for the acts of watering and petting. -
At first I went around petting and watering the trees just because it seemed like a nice thing to do, but after a while I got the idea that I was doing something unnecessary because the connection wasn't clear to me. I saw other players going by too quickly to be doing much more than harvesting and leaving.
So.. since we do tend to learn to do what we find rewarding; maybe something just needs balancing here. Does petting & watering have to take quite so long on the timer? Maybe harvesting would be faster if the tree were taken care of first? -
@Lelu - You get bonuses for watering and petting. The different bonuses increase with the LGT1-3 and Gardening1-5 skills. I think harvesting speed is increased with the Gardening skill.
Do you mean to balance them more with the unskilled? Or to weight more to one side? -
@Bingobar --
For me -- and please, anyone else chime in -- the need for energy, and warnings from my bud the Pet Rock that I needed to eat RIGHT NOW, swayed my play style in favor of primarily doing things that got me food or completed quests.
I didn't realize that I could intentionally let myself run out of energy and get to another location until I started reading the forum. I didn't know what the "death penalty" was in Glitch and was having too much fun exploring to want to get stuck not playing for a while! :)
At low level, seems like harvesting is rewarded more than petting & watering in terms of continuing game play -- from harvesting, I got something I could eat or use. From petting & watering, I got bonuses but I didn't see a reason to prioritize them because they cost me more energy. Since I kept running low on energy I thought I needed to figure out what I was doing wrong on that front, and stop doing things that consumed energy without getting me food. Low level being: I played from 1 and made it just over the line to 7.
So if we don't want newbies to run around eating everything and not watering or petting... then either energy needs to be less of a pressure, or watering and petting benefits need to be more obvious, i think? I guess that's what I'm getting at.
Optional "Love the world" quests could be one possibility: maybe an NPC representing a devotee of the giants offers food & XP rewards for tending x number of plants, with it only being available to players under a certain level. It would be something easy for newbies to get started on and stay fed while contributing to the system. - I was much more into tending trees when XP was important. Tending is an afterthought these days, but now it's a lot easier to find hoe-able patches.
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Well, when the game is more completely, XP will always be important, probably. ^^
But then again... was xp really ever that important? o.o - hugely, but it made the game too grindy
- Ooh, okay. I thought you meant "was" on a progression basis. :P
- Unless you hear otherwise, you can trust that the rate at which trees die off is accelerated right now. We discovered a bug that was preventing them from dying out over time (like dying out at all), and what that meant is that any sort of balance we'd intended for that component of the game was essentially untested. So we opened the doors and waited to see what would happen. It turned out a bit on the morbid side, but nothing's permanent right now, so don't sweat it :-)
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Thank the GIANTS!
*happy dance* -
Now we just have to wake up the giants so that the world will come back into existence.
Too bad they don't dream, because if they did their imaginations would still be active. - I would like to see a seed discount or match program for Philanthropy missions...At this point those seeds are pretty expensive when you are purchasing 10 a piece to replant in the world.Maybe a Plant 3 get one free gig......or the like......Same for upping pig wrestling when you are transplanting the ones you hatch to outside world......
- DizzyDazz, players can make their own seeds. So, that's where player cooperation could come in. A person with high seed making skill could provide the seed to somebody with a high gardening skill and they could replant the world together.
- I make my own seeds too,buying is faster for me cause I go through a lot of them....I like just lolly gaggling about doing my own thing with the planting while I am tripping about.. It would be cost and time effective for me with a discount as a loner...but I also agree with group philanthropy as an option! A MayDayMade festival would be great too....or any festival for that matter.... as a philanthropic activity..Your onto a great idea FP! Choices for the masses....
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I just thought of a new suggestion of a way that can work! It's a little subtle psychological thing that doesn't get in anyone's face, but it just might work! ^^
Make the default option of trees either "Water" or "Pet".
That way, not only is helping out easier, but harvesting is no longer a double tap enter and leave activity. :3